Jump to content

New member- my journey to skin on frame is beginning...


srileo

Recommended Posts

Hello all

I am new to kayak building, and very eager to learn and practice skin on frame building. I recently attended 3 days of a CLC kayak stitch and glue course locally as a volunteer / helper, and came away with a healthy respect for those that toil with the endless copper stitching, snipping, filleting, sanding, epoxy mixing, and the head scratching. The end product of a beautiful kayak is certainly a motivator, but i do not see myself looking forward to that kind of labor more than once. I don't think my family or friends would volunteer themselves to help willingly. 
 
By contrast, skin-on-frame construction seems to be more satisfying - a greater latitude, simpler construction, straightforward work, and to my eyes, just as beautiful and functional boats. I was initially attracted to the Cape Falcon Kayak site with its superb video productions, but after bumping into Jeff's and Gentry's style of building, it seems like a no-brainer that fuselage frame is even more attractive for the first time builder. Bumping into George Dyson's Baidarka book, and his gorgeous aluminum boats have me salivating. I have Jeff's book, and a collection of other books on skin on frame building (though i do not understand the art fully as yet). I settled on the Vardo as a potential first kayak. I love Jeff's practicality, economy, and value minded approach to boat building. 

So, as a start point (and goal), everything that Jeff's Kudzu craft and Dave Gentry's plans meets my needs as a hopeful builder. My goal is to build a kayak for me and my family. If i enjoy the process and its economical enough I'd like to work up to building one of Jeff Spira's power dories in a year or two. His approach to boat building with available lumber, simple construction - are a lot like Jeff's. 

I do have a few questions. They are a bit random, but am hoping you all can help me fill in the gaps in my knowledge. 

1) What is the attraction to steam bending technique as espoused by Cape Falcon and SeaWolf etc? Cutting out the mortises and measuring the ribs perfectly seems to introduce a lot more time and fuss and equipment into the process? Is it the "traditional method" cachet?  I cant imagine a total n00b would choose it over fuselage frame despite the sexy videos? 

 

2) For a newbie to woodworking, i still would like to take a class on skin-on-frame for fuselage frame style (yea, i am that dumb). Does Jeff teach anymore? All the classes for SoF are the steam bending variety in exotic locales too far from me. Of course, if i took one of them I can easily build Jeff's boats. 

3) If Jeff does not teach building his boats anymore, is there a way to isolate the skills into chunks that i could learn from different local sources? For example: 
a) Ripping the lumber (take a safety course at a local woodshop )
b) Using hand and power tools to cut out the frames  (safety course?)
c) Lashing (YT videos?) 
d) Skinning ( probably can wing this one on my own, having fiberglassed a kayak before) 
 

4) I can only start building early next year when i will have moved to our new house and its garage. But i want to use the time before then by getting the skills in place. 

 

5) One hesitation about taking the course in boat building is the expense of travel flights + local transport +  stay + food is likely twice the price of the kayak. I will be moving to Atlanta, so Jeff's Alabama workshop is only a few hours drive from me. Tempting. The perfect course for me would be a long weekend where the individual skills are taught separately, and avoiding the heavily repetitious tasks such as lashing. I can then go home and build it myself at my own sweet space...

6) Anybody here with zero woodworking experience jumped into fuselage frame building and survived to build another 1-2 kayaks? 

 

7) Is it at all possible to put a small outboard motor to a skin on frame boat? Gentry's Indian Creek motor canoe is the closest I have seen to one. I suppose the frames are too light for motors...?


That's a lot of questions, but i hope you all can educate me...

Shridhar from San Francisco
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


In regards to question #1, I started building one of Cape Falcon's kayaks and was probably 2/3rds finished with the frame when I shelved the project and went with KudzuCraft instead.  The amount of print and video material on "traditional" skin on frame is probably what swayed my decision initially.  It seemed to be what most people were doing, so the masses must not be wrong....right? 🙂

 

What changed my mind was when I started discussing with the designer my steam bent ribs, and he was talking about how if they are off by just a half inch it could dramatically change the stability and/or performance of the boat.  It was becoming more art than science.  I think had a I finished the kayak all would have been ok, but didn't want to waste any more time on a potentially poorly functioning boat.

 

Another thing about the traditional method that makes me chuckle is how some of the builders act like they are paying homage to the Inuit.  While the completed frame may roughly resemble what the Inuit built, nothing about the process is the same.  I'm pretty sure the Inuit didn't have table saws and plunge routers. Once I realized that the way the Inuit built boats was based on the materials and tools available to them and not on what is the best method TODAY based on modern materials and tools, the decision on picking a design was easy. 

 

Bottom line, I think the Kudzu Craft designed boats are far superior.  Not only do they provide a more accurate and consistent hull shape, but they are stronger (my opinion), easier and quicker to build, require fewer woodworking skills/tools, and possibly cheaper.

 

If you decide to go the traditional route, I'll give you my partially finished CapeFalcon frame.  You just need to drop by KC to pick it up. 😆

 

Regarding the skills/tools needed, one idea is to tap into the local woodworker/boatbuilder community.  Here in KC we have a woodworkers guild.  Members have access to a fully equipped shop plus the expertise of the members.  Something similar probably exists in the SF area.

 

Additionally, if you read through the threads posted here you'll find the answer to almost every question imaginable.

 

Good luck!

 

Scott

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Scott Pettigrew said:

.....discussing with the designer my steam bent ribs, and he was talking about how if they are off by just a half inch it could dramatically change the stability and/or performance of the boat.  It was becoming more art than science.

 

This is the reason I never built a traditional boat.  They are built by eye, not by plans (for the most part).  There isn't a good easy way to build two exactly alike boats.  Fuselage frame may not be identical but they will be extremely close.

 

And no, no longer doing classes.  Last one I tried to put together all but one student backed out.  Just hard to put on a class for a price people are willing to pay.  So I sold off all the tools and supplied I used in the classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first thing I ask a new builder, no matter what building process we are discussing, will you have fun building the boat?  The answer must be yes.  You don't really build your own boat to save money, certainly not to save time. It is a very affordable way to get a boat, but only if it is fun.

 

We can debate building techniques, but I see no point.  I built a dory skiff the old fashion way, with all bronze screws and copper rivets.  The result was a nice boat and I had a lot of fun, I win.  I have built 5 Kudzu kayaks, and had fun there too, and I still have mine. I have built 2 stitch'n'glue boats, and a glued lap boat. I enjoyed all 3 builds and I am particularly fond of my B&B Lapwing.

 

I have watched total novices document their B&B plywood boats, and Kudzu fuselage frame boats here in this forum.  If you have the patience, and are not shy about asking questions, you will find all the support you need to build right here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/16/2022 at 10:20 AM, Kudzu said:

 

And no, no longer doing classes.  Last one I tried to put together all but one student backed out.  Just hard to put on a class for a price people are willing to pay.  So I sold off all the tools and supplied I used in the classes.

Ah, thats a shame, but totally understandable. Just a reference point, i think the market is there for these classes, but it is sort of consolidated under the heavy-hitters with big marketing/ social reach. At a recent CLC session, a Nick Schade class was booked months in advance and a friend was placed 15th in the waiting list.  Location probably is the other big factor.


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Hirilonde said:

The first thing I ask a new builder, no matter what building process we are discussing, will you have fun building the boat?  The answer must be yes.  You don't really build your own boat to save money, certainly not to save time. It is a very affordable way to get a boat, but only if it is fun.

 

Absolutely. Its certainly not money that i choose to save and i certainly do not have copious time to give away. But something about the stitch and glue process did not feel right. I asked myself if my family or friends could be coaxed to help. For an hour maybe. 

Having said that, would S.o.F be the right technique for me? I do not know yet, not having handled it, but i think i will enjoy the lumber ripping, cutting, shaping, lashing and skinning more. I am going to isolate these skills and see if i can do them on a smaller scale and enjoy them.  George Dyson mentions how he enjoyed the lashing process the most - perhpas its meditative. Gotta try it out.. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/16/2022 at 5:49 AM, Scott Pettigrew said:

In regards to question #1, I started building one of Cape Falcon's kayaks and was probably 2/3rds finished with the frame when I shelved the project and went with KudzuCraft instead.  The amount of print and video material on "traditional" skin on frame is probably what swayed my decision initially.  It seemed to be what most people were doing, so the masses must not be wrong....right? 🙂

 

What changed my mind was when I started discussing with the designer my steam bent ribs, and he was talking about how if they are off by just a half inch it could dramatically change the stability and/or performance of the boat.  It was becoming more art than science.  I think had a I finished the kayak all would have been ok, but didn't want to waste any more time on a potentially poorly functioning boat.

 

Another thing about the traditional method that makes me chuckle is how some of the builders act like they are paying homage to the Inuit.  While the completed frame may roughly resemble what the Inuit built, nothing about the process is the same.  I'm pretty sure the Inuit didn't have table saws and plunge routers. Once I realized that the way the Inuit built boats was based on the materials and tools available to them and not on what is the best method TODAY based on modern materials and tools, the decision on picking a design was easy. 

 

Bottom line, I think the Kudzu Craft designed boats are far superior.  Not only do they provide a more accurate and consistent hull shape, but they are stronger (my opinion), easier and quicker to build, require fewer woodworking skills/tools, and possibly cheaper.

 

If you decide to go the traditional route, I'll give you my partially finished CapeFalcon frame.  You just need to drop by KC to pick it up. 😆

 

Regarding the skills/tools needed, one idea is to tap into the local woodworker/boatbuilder community.  Here in KC we have a woodworkers guild.  Members have access to a fully equipped shop plus the expertise of the members.  Something similar probably exists in the SF area.

 

Additionally, if you read through the threads posted here you'll find the answer to almost every question imaginable.

 

Good luck!

 

Scott

 

 

Thank you for your detailed and encouraging response Scott. Am afraid the F1 frame will stay with you for a while 🙂 

Great idea about the local woodworking facilities. I started looking up the local clubs and there are a few around. 

I am certainly going to be around these forums learning. ARe there any other that specialize in skin on frame fueslage construction?

 

Looking up the best resources to learn lashing. I came across this resource. 
https://www.animatedknots.com/complete-knot-list

Really like the clarity. Are any of these knots what are used in our lashing? How many different lashing techniques  are  needed in a s.o.f build?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, srileo said:

Looking up the best resources to learn lashing. I came across this resource. 
https://www.animatedknots.com/complete-knot-list

Really like the clarity. Are any of these knots what are used in our lashing? How many different lashing techniques  are  needed in a s.o.f build?

 

 

Regarding knots and lashing, Jeff covers them in his instruction manual and his YouTube video here: 

 

 

 

Even though I didn't end up finishing my Cape Falcon kayak, I had already paid for their Skin on Frame Kayak Building Course (https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/kayak-building).  It's not cheap, but probably much cheaper than an in person course.  Why should you buy it?  I still watched the videos, particularly some of the details on building a coming, lashing the gunwales, keel, stringers, and skinning the boat.  He provides great detail on stitching the skin, stretching it, getting out the wrinkles, applying a two-part urethane, etc.

 

You can watch the free prep course (https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/skin-on-frame-kayak-building) to get a feel for what the videos are like.

 

An additional note regarding what build method you should use, I have also built a stitch and glue canoe (Sassafras 16 from CLC), and a strip built sailing canoe (https://duckworks.com/ulua-plans/).  While I don't have the experience level of Dave, my opinion is that skin on frame is absolutely the best way to go for a kayak if what you want to do is get on the water quickly, cheap, and not throw your back out hoisting the thing on the roof.  The other methods produce a strong and beautiful boat, but take more time and money.  The other build techniques have their place.  I'm planning on building a small sailboat using stitch and glue in the near future. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Congrats, Shridhar! Boatbuilding is one of the most gratifying projects you can undertake and Jeff’s designs have a great ratio of fun to work to results. Getting your boat out of the building jig onto the grass yields a huge sense of accomplishment and the FROGs are so beautiful you almost hate to cover them.

 

My wife and I built two Ravenswoods in June. We both really enjoyed working together and she’s extremely proud of her accomplishment—I am too!

 

As for fuselage vs bent ribs, I think there’s still some prejudice against using plywood. Its too  utilitarian for purists. Also, the time spent cutting, sanding, routing frames adds up if you’re building boats for sale as Brian at CFK does. Plus a sheet of plywood costs more that a chunk of bending stock.

 

Since you’ll soon have the plans, but perhaps not yet the space, you might get started by cutting your frames. You can also start hunting wood for your stringers—if you’re patient and willing to pick through lumber piles at Lowes and/or Home Depot you can find useable stock. I had better luck there than at specialty wood dealers where the wouldn’t let you pick the piles. Unless your dealer stocks clear S4S ($$$), you’ll have to overbuy and do a lot of scarfing. My local  Lowes stores in Denver had cedar 8 ft1x4, rough one side that measured 11/16x3 1/2. A few strokes with a hand plane yielded 5/8”, perfect for the gunwales, chines, keel and deck beams. I could usually find 1 or 2 8 ft boards each time they restocked and sometimes I hit multiple stores.

 

We did laminated coamings —ripping thin stock out of hardwood was too much for my table saw so  I had it done at Rockler. I bought African mahogany and they ripped and sanded the strips to 3/32nds for me. I could give the strips a light soak and bend them around my jig. If you laminate, estimate how many buy clamps you need then buy twice as many! Or just use plywood according to plans…in retrospect, I’d use plywood and just paint the coamings.

 

There are a lot of efficiencies in building two. We cut all the frames and stringers but then assembled the FROGs using the same strongback, one after the other. We also used the same jig for the coamings. You’re much faster the second time you do something.

 

We’ve used the kayaks a lot already but I need to finish fitting deck rigging, carry handles, float bags, skirts etc.  We also started building Greenland style paddles. Hand planing cedar is a lot of fun but we’re waiting for cooler weather to finish them. I also want to learn to roll and build skill and capabilities for bigger water. Maybe next summer we’ll plan a trip to the Apostle Islands or Pictured Rocks National Seashores on Lake Superior.

 

Good luck!

Hal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the detailed advise Hal. Very encouraging. I really value the advise on looking everywhere for the wood. I don’t have much knowledge in that department but it looks like a fun activity! 
 

i don’t quite get the value of building the coaming with steam bending when the plywood cut out is that simple.. is it rude gratin that shows up on the bent coming that gives it that cachet?
 

i received the vardo plans yesterday and was delighted with the manual that accompanied it. Jeff did a great job of going into detail there. In fact i am surprised it’s not published and sold separately. I find it more valuable than his fuselage frame book. 
 

I’ll be taking some woodworking classes next month and the wife promised to help with the boat if i built her one as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me the attraction of the laminated coaming was the flash of varnished wood. It highlights that the kayak is different from everything else out there—especially the plastic boats. 
 

It’s overkill if you just want to get on the water. They are pretty though…

 

Very glad to hear that you’ve enlisted the help and support of your wife. My wife and I truly had a good time building ours. 

HH

39B8717D-F5B0-4516-88B1-13097DBFD9A3.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shridhar:

Go for it! In the words the great boat designer and builder Pete Culler "Experience starts when you begin." You have already received some valuable advice on this forum. Another good source is yostwerks.com. Make sure to let us know how you're doing and have fun!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Supporting Members

Supporting Members can create Clubs, photo Galleries, don't see ads and make messing-about.com possible! Become a Supporting Member - only $12 for the next year. Pay by PayPal or credit card.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.