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Main sheet questions for Core Sound 20


Reacher
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I'm replacing the sheets for my CS 20 mk1. I think the original line is 7/16 (it's now soft and fuzzy). I can't find the recommended diameter in the rigging plan. Can someone confirm?

 

Also, I have 2:1 purchase on the main. The sheet runs through a block on the thwart to a block on the sprit then back to a block on the thwart. I have noticed that some rigs show a 4:1 purchase (thwart to sprit to thwart to sprit and back to thwart). In heavier winds I would like the 4:1 to make trimming easier and keeping the sheet in hand. But this also doubles the amount of line being pulled through the blocks. I'd appreciate comments on how the 4:1 works for you.

 

Finally, my current mainsheet does not allow the sail to ride forward of the mast. I can see that allowing the sail to go forward of the mast could be good for dead downwind without being on the verge of a jibe. But it also seems like a recipe for being out of control in following swells. Any comments from those who sail with the main forward of the mast?

 

Thank you.

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I recently upgraded to Marlow Excel 8MM (5/16") 8 plait poly from duckworks and it is a big improvement over the old three strand.   https://duckworks.com/marlow-excel-marstron.    I don't often sheet out past 90 degree but I think you want to have enough line to go to 110 degrees as a way to stabilize and dump power running downwind.  Also, I made both sheets equal lengths so I wouldn't have to keep track of which one goes on the main. 

2:1 seems fine on my CS17 with 86 sq foot mainsail mainsheet.  I'd look at upgrading blocks before converting to 4:1 on the mainsheet. 

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I think all main sheets on small boats are over sized. They are way stronger than needed.  It is done for comfort. I can't imagine you need larger.

 

I would never add more advantage to a pulley system than is absolutley needed. It doesn't just create a larger pile of spaghetti in the boat, but slows down trimming.

 

I rarely sail with the sprit forward of abeam.  But I like that I can and that I can slow down making a down wind beach landing by dropping the mizzen and dumping the main by sheeting out to forward of a beam.

 

I use the soft braid B&B sells. Randy, have you tried marking the lines with colored tape or markers to tell them apart? It took me a year or more to stop making my sheets shorter. I was afraid to make them too short. But I didn't want any more line in the cockpit than necessary. I leave my sheets rigged to the sprits when I break down at the boat ramp. Less to do next time and solves the problem of which is which.
 

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I leave my sheets on the boat, fasten them to a strap eye on the sprit ends with a snap shackle when rigging.   I got red line for the main sheet, blue for mizzen.  Not only does it help me keep them straight, it's much easier to tell guests (like at the family sailing extravaganza last week), "pull that blue rope."  Or more importantly, "keep your butt off that red rope."  Stuff can happen too fast on a dinghy to stand on ceremony. 

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35 minutes ago, Paul356 said:

  Not only does it help me keep them straight, it's much easier to tell guests (like at the family sailing extravaganza last week), "pull that blue rope."  Or more importantly, "keep your butt off that red rope."  Stuff can happen too fast on a dinghy to stand on ceremony. 

LOL, but yeah, I hadn't thought of this one.

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I started with Buzz Line by New England ropes, 7mm.  It is a nice line in the hand, and colorful (blue and white).  But up here in the Appalachian foothills, we get a lot of light air.  The weight of the line de-trims the sails.  I’ve switched to 1/4” Sta-Set, with main and mizzen being different colors.  I still keep the Buzz on board, especially for the main.  If it is windy, that thicker, lumpier  line is easier to grasp.

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:15 AM, Reacher said:

I'm replacing the sheets for my CS 20 mk1. I think the original line is 7/16 (it's now soft and fuzzy). I can't find the recommended diameter in the rigging plan. Can someone confirm?

 

Also, I have 2:1 purchase on the main. The sheet runs through a block on the thwart to a block on the sprit then back to a block on the thwart. I have noticed that some rigs show a 4:1 purchase (thwart to sprit to thwart to sprit and back to thwart). In heavier winds I would like the 4:1 to make trimming easier and keeping the sheet in hand. But this also doubles the amount of line being pulled through the blocks. I'd appreciate comments on how the 4:1 works for you.

 

Finally, my current mainsheet does not allow the sail to ride forward of the mast. I can see that allowing the sail to go forward of the mast could be good for dead downwind without being on the verge of a jibe. But it also seems like a recipe for being out of control in following swells. Any comments from those who sail with the main forward of the mast?

 

Thank you.

 

We've been using 3/8" line for the Core Sound 20 sheets for a long time now. The length we're using right now is 44 feet for the Core Sound 20 Mainsheet at 2:1. We have this line available if you'd like to buy from us. We have it in white and blue. Here is a LINK. You can see it in the top of this picture below. We like this line for sheets because it's light, floats and feels good in the hand. It's not a "high performance" line but still has a MWL of 2000lbs. It is a 6 strand single braid. We don't use any 3 strand lines in our line kits. 

Lines.thumb.jpg.6749cacb17d8142f6a97acb170f6bdee.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For sheet length we use 10 degree of forward sprit rotation to size the sheet length. But for the CS-20 I like to make sure there is enough sheet that you can let out the sail all the way from one side only. So say your sailing upwind sheeted fully in then you bear off and want to let it all the way out. You don't want to have to let it out from both ends to achieve this because you'd have to reach down the lee side. So we take that into account with the sheet length of 44 feet. If you go with 4:1 you'd need about 90 foot sheet line on the CS-20 to have enough let it all the way out from one side. Of course this assumes that the sheet is mostly centered on the boat to start with. I like to keep a whipping on the center of the sheet line so I can monitor how far off center it is and in a tack i'll occasionally make an adjustment to the sheet to keep it close to equal on both sides.

 

On the 20mk3 which has a 4:1 sheet the sheet ends are cleated on the thwart as opposed to the coaming so it's not as big a deal to let some our from the lee side and for that reason the 20mk3 sheet isn't as long only about 70 feet. 

1821585375_CS20Lines.thumb.JPG.ff55343ba2f152375f0956e0cc2d2467.JPG

 

As for purchase we use 4:1 on the Core Sound 20 Mk3 mainsheet. The 20mk3 main is about 10 sqft larger. I also used 2:1 on our Core Sound 20 and in high winds it is a bit of hard pull on the mainsheet but I always liked being able to sheet in and out really quickly so I lived with it. The 4:1 sheet in contrast is a lot of pulling and it doesn't ease out nearly as easily in light air. 

 

Here is how we have the 20mk3 sheet. 

image.png.f82b94ed0576b40ccfcfc4fc71495133.png 

 

What I would do if you want to be able to use 4:1 on your CS-20 occasionally is replace the mainsheet with a longer one that can handle 4:1 and add attachments for a second block on the end of the sprit as well as in the center of the thwart. You can then either use these extra blocks to run the sheet as 4:1 or 2:1 depending on conditions. You can make these snatch blocks (although these can be quite expensive) so that you can snap the mainsheet into them and have 4:1 very quickly on the water or go the cheap route and have to remove one end of the sheet from the cleat and re-reeve it through the center block and second sprit block to get 4:1. That wouldn't be too hard to do on the water while hove to. 

 

A way to reduce the sheet length is to attach the upper block to the sprit via a pennant line as seen below. For a 2:1 sheet this reduces the needed sheet length by twice the length of the pennant line. The downside is when you gibe the block swings across at head height so be careful. For a 4:1 setup you need a double block on the spirt as we show and this is why we don't show it on a pennant line. That thing is pretty heavy and we don't want one smacking someone on the side of the head. 

 

AM-JKLUQvawOslHb4O6j0VS-KFYF9AD_y1ThciR8loHW_QH3gVdxPDaNWC_m61jLP0DnhF_sf1SKsRfczLEO0yqkYsg2g5VoGtf2QVW7n95SBx0vjosotl0z9Kr0i1TmMkau6W_AqGCCISSyj4QLloLf_DefQA=w640-h480-no?authuser=0

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

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Hey Dave, 

We still keep a few of those in stock yes but they aren't the default for the 20mk3 just due to the higher cost. There are cheaper options than the ronstan swivel cleat of course. I assume Reacher has the coaming mounted lateral jam cleats on his CS-20 which we still prefer for the open Core Sounds (15, 17, 20) and the Lapwing because they are always right at hand when sailing hiked out and they are very cheap and effective. As always there are lots of ways to cleat a line. :)

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FTR, I went with just a 2:1 on Skeena. I sailed Pete McCrary's CS20.3 at the Messabout and the 4:1 drove me nuts, both in the extra length and weight of line when the air was light. I feel like if the sheet loads are that great I should be reefing. If you want to make the sail go forward the mast you are going to need even more line! I will admit the line that Alan speaks of that came with the kit is nice. I got white and it works fine, although shows the dirt......

 

Steve

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This discussion goes to show that everyone can be happy doing things differently and getting similar results. I probably drive Carlita a bit harder than most prudent skippers. I am doing it for R&D, that is my story and I am sticking to it.

 

I have 16 square feet less area in Carlita's main than the 20mk3 and I prefer the 4:1main sheet. It is the last few feet when sheeting in hard in a fresh breeze that I need it. I might be able to getaway with 3:1 but I prefer double ended sheets on the main. I have 2:1 single ended sheet on the mizzen and sometimes I have to pull hard to sheet it in where I want it. I am using our 5/16"  braid for the sheets. At 4:1 the main sheet is long but it just stacks up in two piles just behind the mizzen mast in the bottom of the cockpit. I can remember two times on our grand cruise that I had to untangle the main sheet but it was minor. If I keep the mizzen running lines tidy so that they cannot get involved with the main sheet I do not seem to have any issues.

 

I like the pennant between sprit and the sheets. I cannot see any down side (I do not expect too many people who have sailed more than once who would sit with their head between the mizzen mast and the mainsheet) but I see a lot of upside. For me, getting rid of 6' of line for the same sheeting angle, lowering the CG of the main sheet and reducing windage, not to mention buying 6' less line. While some of these advantages might seem miniscule in the big picture, If you follow this logic throughout the boat it adds up to why some boats seem faster than others. Dennis Connor's mantra was "no excuse to lose".

 

Another important reason why we chose that line for sheets has been mentioned but not explained; is that it is lighter. Again in the big picture, that might not seem like a big deal. It also does not absorb water. Try dunking dacron and see how heavy it feels. When running in light air, the heavier sheet sags into the water, gets heavier and drags in the water even more. I am not saying that our sheets never drag in the water but it is a lot easier keep them from dragging than dacron. 

 

If you are using our sheets and they are dragging in the water, look for one of the sheet parts that is tighter than the rest and adjust all of the parts to be of equal tension. When the sheets are eased out to 90 degrees or more, the snotter tightens slightly on boats with tabernacles, this is trying to force the sail back toward the center of the boat causing the sheet to sag, more noticeable in light air. Ease the snotter slightly.

 

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11 hours ago, Designer said:

When the sheets are eased out to 90 degrees or more, the snotter tightens slightly on boats with tabernacles, this is trying to force the sail back toward the center of the boat causing the sheet to sag, more noticeable in light air. Ease the snotter slightly.


I love spotting these little hints to improve situations I’ve encountered (in my very limited sailing experience)… this is one of them.  In a very light following wind, as I’m trying to keep sails in a wing-on-wing posture, I noticed it seems like the weight of the main sheets pulls the mainsail back from its 90 or so degree angle.  (I use B&B’s blue lines that came in my kit ?.)  I hadn’t considered that the tightening snotter plays a role in that situation.  Thanks for the hint. I’ll try to remember this.  ?
 

 

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Thanks to everyone who replied and especially to Alan for the detail and the diagrams.

 

I am opting for the incremental approach. I’m changing out my line for some of the BandB 3/8 dinghy braid. And adding some extra length to allow the 10 degrees forward rotation at the mast. I’m not going to cut the line into separate main and mizzen sheets, but rather just thread the line through all the blocks and have a single sheet. Then, if I decide on a good way to get occasional 4:1 purchase I will use the single sheet as the long main sheet and buy a mizzen sheet.

 

I have coaming mounted cleats which are handy, simple, inexpensive, light, and effective, all as Alan said. I’ve thought about changing over to a swivel block/jam cleat on each end of the mainsheet but would like to see and try it to see how it might be better or worse than the basic plan. Just as I would like to test out a 4:1 rig. I might need a trip to the Messabout.
 

Happy sailing to everyone.

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Andy, the quick answer to your question is no, there is no interference with passengers enjoying the ride. The boat is actually one of the most passenger friendly rides you will find. The CS mk1 version I have has long open seats on each side suitable for sitting, moving around, even stretching out for a nap in light air.

 

The rig allows the sails to tend themselves on tacks and jibes. Extremely passenger friendly. The lightweight sprits swing across the cockpit during turns, but they are safer than a head knocker boom.

 

The lines are easily organized with 2-3 “line bags” to contain the halyards, downhauls, and other control lines.

 

The double ended mainsheet is, to me, more of a convenience than not. Whether you are sailing from the high side of the boat or the low side, the cleat is right there in front of you.

 

I started this discussion on a 4:1 mainsheet because, in my old age, I still enjoy a robust close hauled sail with the mainsheet in hand to play the gusts. I’d just like it to be easier to haul it in the last foot during those times. I don’t think that the extra line required for 4:1 would bother the passengers.

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To let my kids experience the new boat last year (CS15), four adults and a grandson joined me. I, like Paul, managed the main sheet from the back, leaning back on the transom while another managed the helm.  I haven’t gotten around yet to making pockets that would neaten up the lines. I was surprised how comfortable it was. 

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22 minutes ago, PadrePoint said:

  I haven’t gotten around yet to making pockets that would neaten up the lines. 

I find pockets for sheets cause more tangles than loose spaghetti on the cockpit sole.  I coil my mizzen haylyard and tuck it behind where it leads down to the cleat. My main halyard leads aft to  the thwart on the port side deck and I let it spill just forward out of the way of my aft cockpit. If I had a balasted cruising boat I might do differently.

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