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Spindrift 10N Build - Two Bits


PiedTyper

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Okay, so what I'm hearing is that there is no "definitive" number but so long as its between 8 & 12:1 (and they match) I should be A-OK.

 

Re: Gluing the scarf

I've never worked with epoxy in woodworking but in traditional glue-ups I've read that you're not supposed to apply too much clamp pressure as it can squeeze all/most of the glue out of the joint and compromise the resulting bond.  Is this an issue with epoxy?  Is there a such thing as -too much- pressure so long as it's within normal hand clamp forces?

 

I'm not threatening to throw it in the 20-ton press, but I'm not above putting it on the vacuum table or throwing a few hundred pounds of Linotype pigs on top to ensure the most reliable bond possible.

 

Sorry for so many questions on this subject, I really don't want to mess this bit up.

 

Re: Aft Seat Option

     Have any of you opted in for the aft seat?  If yes, then how is it working out for you.  If no, then why did you opt out?  I'm thinking about adding the cleats but just skipping the seat up front because I'm just not sure when I'd use it...  Rowing maybe?  Wouldn't another human that far aft would make it harder to row?

 

Re: Flotation

     Okay, so I know all of you are expert sailors to which this scenario would never happen but lets talk hypothetically for a moment.  Hypothetically speaking, lets say you're sailing along unknowingly carrying too much sail and all of a sudden you find yourself swimming next to a capsized dinghy, how well is the dinghy floating on its' side?  For those of you that added additional flotation, where did you stash it?

 

 

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There is no such think as too many questions.  Ask away!  It is good that you are thinking ahead to things such as floatation and seating.  It is more difficult to change things, once you’ve painted (or varnished).
 

FLOATATION

Less floatation is the down side to the nesting versions.  The non-nesting Spindrifts float like a cork.  Because of the spacial demands for nesting, sacrifices must be made.

I’m experimenting with this, and am reporting on another post.  Others have posted on their solutions.  Dig around on the forum, while you’re waiting for glue to set up.

 

CLAMPING 

You don’t need much pressure for gluing epoxy, since it is stronger than the wood.  For scarfs, I usually place a 1” board on top (with plastic in between), and shoot a couple of drywall screws into my workbench, through the whole stack. (yes, including the panels) If my glue-up is on the shop floor, I put some weights on the 1” board.  Weights may be barbells, a bag of cement or sand, or a 5 gallon bucket full of rocks or water.

 

SEATING

My forward seat is there for floatation and storage.  B21DC80D-E462-4684-BC98-2398A0B554B5.thumb.jpeg.a007b6fb2460abaaa253a52c2acab189.jpeg  It has been used occasionally for seating.  Once, my wife and I went for a ride in my TP8 using an electric trolling motor mounted on the bow.  I sat on the forward seat; she sat on a board that spanned the two aft corner tanks.  Since then, I have completed my aft seat.  Cleats are good.  They allow you options after paint.  Notice

that my cleats are 1/4” below the surface, allowing for the thickness of the seat.D0EA9E68-F63A-40C9-8F9B-ADEBA12CCC81.thumb.jpeg.98bc15542fd443b3ac46355eb1e9c9d2.jpeg

The threaded knob holds the seat in place.

 

E8299E3B-460D-4572-9CA8-1DDEF8A2B308.thumb.jpeg.67aded7aebb8f47e7556afe4478ffa52.jpeg

The seat, upside down.  Notice the hole for the threaded knob.  The vertical walls are for added strength, since the seat is only 1/4” thick.

 

8544BD5B-661E-4AF9-AA04-74BF4C753691.thumb.jpeg.d1e55c3ae31ba48ab925b867632e1954.jpeg

The seat, installed.  Note how it is flush with the tank surfaces.  For some reason, this was important to me at the time.  A surface mounted seat would work well, or even better.  It just wouldn’t be as pretty (to me).

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Okay I'm stumped, what piece exactly is the "Deadwood" 1"x2"x3'?  I've scoured the plans a few times but am obviously missing what this piece of wood turns into and when it gets there...

 

Just to be clear, I'd expect it to be something to do with the keel/transom intersection, but the entire keel appears to be made out of a single coped 1x2 in the plans but the instructions suggest it's in two pieces, and the materials list identifies the keel as being a single piece of 1x1x10'...

 

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Update on the mystery of deadwood...

 

Sounds like it could be an episode of Scooby Doo...

 

Anyway, I've slept on this and the following are the facts as I currently know them.

Exhibit A) The materials list gives us two material numbers:

Qty 1 - 1"x1"x10' - Keel

Qty 1 - 1"x2"x3' - Deadwood

 

Exhibit B) The plans identify the keel as being 1-1/2"x3/4" (a 1"x2") of an undisclosed length

 

Exhibit C) The Instructions indicate that the keel is supplied in 2 pieces, presumably one for the forward half of the boat and the other for the aft half since the instructions suggest that the keel is attached AFTER the boat is cut in half and might make it difficult to accurately do the cut & bend method as the plans suggest.  

 

This leaves me with the following theories:

  1.  The materials list is INCORRECT
    • (Option 1A) The design has been modified and the list not updated.  The current method is to cope a single (unknown length) 1"x2" to form the entire keel.
  2. The Materials list is CORRECT
    • (Option 2A) The design has been modified and the plans have not been fully updated.  The current method is to laminate the deadwood lumber to the keel lumber, and cope the whole keel without requiring the keel to be significantly "bent" around the hull.
    • (Option 2B) The design has been modified and the plans have not been clarified. The current method is to make the keel out of the 1"x1" cut into two pieces and laminated into one piece with the cut off making the aft 1/3ish of the keel board into a 1"x2"ish board. Then the assembly is coped and installed per the plans.  This leaves the deadwood as a component used somewhere else in the boat but not identified as "deadwood" in the plans.

     As I sit here, I can see the advantages and disadvantages of all three options, my inclination is to use a single piece of 1x2 (+/-) lumber coped on the edge where the keel meets the bottom of the aft half of the boat and bent around the forward half of the boat as seen in the plans.  This would leave very little end grain exposed on the wearing edge of the keel board.  However in this model it might make sense to use a 1x1 laminated to a section of deadwood on the aft section of the boat because the 1x1 will have less probability of internal stresses in the board and is more likely to stay straight and less likely to split/splinter once coped and bent around the hull, especially if a hardwood is used.

 

 So that's where I am as I finalize my materials list for the lumber yard tomorrow.

 

-Dana

 

  

 

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Graham is on a wonderful adventure, and Alan is holding down the fort, in between changing diapers.  I’ll do my best to answer, without having your info in front of me.
 

Have you looked at the plans, rather than the list of materials?  I don’t have a set of ans for a 10N (yet), but I did check my Two Paw plans. They are different boats, but this section is similar.   The pieces go together like this:

ABC7317C-1FCB-439E-A5D6-01F608B76F88.thumb.jpeg.12991d7ef017bdd20a90702fa3a770f0.jpeg

I did all this work after the boat was cut in two.  But I bolted her back together, to ensure a nice fair (straight curve) line.  See, no keel or deadwood on cut-in-two day.

 

F4C305A9-6D05-4F6A-9CA4-F4C733E6673C.thumb.jpeg.41ef18da2992b9d7c84e14d43dff38f3.jpeg
 

The deadwood requires an old school construction trick, to get the correct shape.    Getting the bottom of the deadwood to conform to the curvature of the hull is the challenge.  Everything else is straight lines.  I couldn’t find a photo in any of my bools, so I made a video.  If somebody can scare up an image of this out of a boatbuilding book, please post it here.

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I think that conclusively solves the mystery of deadwood!

 

So yeah, what your plans show is what I was expecting to see for the deadwood 1x2 listed on the materials list, but this is what the 10n plans show:_20210627_201151.thumb.JPG.08d162076e95d59fb668496a260fd20d.JPG

 

So to me, that suggests that the plans may have changed but the materials list did not.  Instead of having a piece of deadwood to make the shape, the update is a single piece keel all out of one 1x2.  The scribing for the coping seems pretty straightforward.  Makes sense and I'll roll with that.  Worst case scenario, if someone shows up with different info, I'll just have to rip the 1x2 and buy a piece of 1x2 for the deadwood later.

 

Thank you again for all of your help, it truly means a lot to know y'all will make sure I don't stray too far off the path.  

 

-Dana

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It's funny how the flotation issue has come up so much this year. I finally got around to adding flotation after getting stuck in a bad spot a few years ago when I capsized by myself in a strong breeze. When I righted the boat it was fully swamped and I had a hard time bailing enough water out, so I decided I'd eventually build in the forward seats as flotation. I documented the process in another post today.

 

I really like having a rear bench, and I really like having a center bench, but I'd probably never use both at the same time- so I decided to make one bench that fits in both spots. It really works well- my wife likes to sit there when we are motoring, but if we were sailing and needed to hike out on the side seats it stows away just fine at the stern.

427511735_centerseatC.thumb.jpg.e9e931cd2d69ea14771424bf2823d770.jpg

Fits nice and snug in the stern.

 

149093737_centerseatB.thumb.jpg.6b7ab6388cb885627255266d359ff069.jpg

Also fits great right here in the middle.

 

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Greetings all!

 

Okay, sorry for dipping out on this for a bit, ran into a few hiccups in my non-boat-building life that took all hands for a bit, such is life right?  The down side of this is that I've not had a lot of time for the making part but have had abundant time for the thinking part...   Y'all know how I am about questions for things way past the part I'm at lol.

 

THE UPDATES

  1. The hunt for board lumber is back/still on.  I did stop at a couple of the big boxes in the greater Mineral Bluff metropolitan area and found my options anemic at best.  I then decided that if I'm going to dump that much money into it and have to cull through piles of terrible lumber that I'd rather do it at a local lumber yard and keep the money in the neighborhood.  The catch?  Well, they're only open Monday through Friday...  The implications of that are obvious...  I'm hopeful this week is the week, hopefully I'll get a sunny day and disappear from my other obligations for a bit.
  2. Almost all of my fiberglass, epoxy, and various related sundries have arrived at this point.  Currently, I'm still waiting for my bottom sheathing fiberglass and a couple silicone epoxy mixing cups to arrive.  At that point I should be good to go on that front.
  3. I finally got the electrical system all worked out in order to integrate the running/anchor/deck lights into the build.  My three primary concerns were to a) Be legal and easy to operate single handed in all configurations (sail/row/motor/anchored) b) Not have saggy baggy dangling wires all about the boat constantly.  c) Not have to worry about stuff walking off easily which dovetails with having easy/reliably places to stow things when not in use.  The highlight of it all is the (removable) center seat having integrated solar panels to charge the whole kit so I don't have to worry about batteries all the time.  #Technology  

THE MODIFICATIONS

  1. So I've been thinking a lot about the additional flotation situation.  Reaching way back to my high school geometry class and doing lots of "meh close enough" maths, I came up with the number 1746 cu/in.  In theory, that is how much additional displacement for flotation my 10n would need to float more cork-like, that would bring the total longitudinal half flotation to 1.76 cu/ft or about 110LBS, aka the theoretical weight of the boat.  I understand that the boat Isn't rectangular so the available flotation isn't as linear as 1/2 and I'm good, but hey, any amount of water that I wouldn't have to bail post capsize is an improvement.  For those of you playing at home, that's about the same as continuing the foredeck line to the center seat top at a thickness of about 4 2/3".  That leaves me thinking....  Is it really worth the sacrifice in available interior capacity do undertake such a project, and if it is, is it worth the weight penalty as well?  I'm not sure.  This is where the, what I'm now calling the (Good grief I hope we have a good sense of humor in here. **fingers crossed**) "Thrillsbe Removable Additional Suspension Helpers" (or T.R.A.S.H for short) come in.  I really like the idea of some sort of ultra-light removable supplemental flotation.  Something modular so I can take out the T.R.A.S.H. when motoring and the space is needed or reinstall when sailing and I'm most likely to end up swimming next to my boat.  Yeah, it might not be the most elegant of solutions, but hey, life is rarely elegant!  All of that being said, this task has made it to the deferred section of my project.  Once the boat is complete I'm planning to get a couple chunks of the pink styrofoam and mock up a couple pieces of T.R.A.S.H., head out to the lake and see what works best for my application.  The winner will probably just be wrapped in a thin layer of fiberglass for durability and I'll move on with my life.  
  2. As previously alluded to, I'm building a removable solar panel center seat to add battery charging capability for my nav/anchor lights.  It'll feed a pair of LiFePo batteries (one in the foredeck and one in an aft seat) that will in turn power my integrated LED nav lights for a really, REALLY long time.
  3. I'm planning to modify the design of the boom slightly.  The original plans call for the center mainsail sheet block to be attached to the boom via qty 2 #10-32x3.5" flat head machine screws.  Presumably machine screws were selected because this block is going to take a beating that wood screws just wouldn't survive and presumable flat head screws so that their heads don't chafe the foot of the sail.  The concern that I have with this design is that the head of the screw is totally unsupported in the wood, a situation I just cant bring myself to do on purpose.  The other issue with it is totally self-inflicted, I am using all 316 stainless fasteners on my project, a #10-32x3.5 flat head machine screw (or even a #10-24) is a pretty a pretty rare bird in 316.  My solution:  Flip the orientation of the machine screw to be inserted from the bottom of the boom, instead of the top, then recess a t-nut into the top of the boom then glue a plug in on top of the t-nut.  At that point i can use a #10-32x3+/- pan head machine screw (which is easier to source 2 at a time). 
  4. I'm also planning to build my mast step out of plastic.  The current material of choice is solid PVC sheet (not expanded) assembled in layers like its' wooden equivalent, the trick being that PVC and Epoxy don't exactly stick to each other.  The current plan is to make the epoxy bed for the mast step as indicated in the plans, then use the appropriate adhesive (and the prescribed screws) to make the final attachment.  We shall see how that one works.  Worst case scenario is that it doesn't work and I have to make a wooden one. 

THE QUESTIONS

  1. I'm considering adding t-nuts embedded into the gunwales between the second and final lamination as a provision for attaching oarlock sockets.  Provided that I properly treat the holes, Loctite in the screws, and properly bed the whole assembly to the boat, does anyone see anything else I should be concerned about?  There are only two things I can think of that might give me grief in the long haul is if the machine screw were to break off in the t-nut, getting it out might be nearly impossible.  At that point, I'd probably just drill out the hole, epoxy in a piece of dowel, and then use a screw in its' place...  The second being that it might affect the structural integrity of the gunwale at that point, but honestly, I'm not sure that it'll even be enough to worry about.
  2. So as you all may have gathered, I'm planning to add the optional fiberglass sheathing to the bottom of the boat.  There isn't really a whole lot of Spindrift specific info out there regarding this process but from what I gather, the general practice is to use a single sheet of 4-6oz cloth across the entire bottom in lieu of fiberglass tape at just the seams.  Since the Spindrift calls for 10oz tape at the seams, I'm left with a couple options. a) Use 4oz cloth, and add an additional layer of 6oz tape at the seams (or the inverse) or, b) sheath the bottom in cloth, in-between- the tape seams, c) tape the seams with 10oz tape, then just add a layer of cloth over the whole bottom, or d) (the option I'm favoring) sheath the two bottom pieces independently, then tape over the seams as prescribed in the plans.  Does anyone have any really impassioned opinions on options A-C or any practical reason why option D is a terrible idea?

 

Thanks all for taking the time to read my brain dump!

 

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Welcome back!  “Life” often takes us away from boatbuilding.  Currently, we’re camping. So I can only fish, sail, eat, sleep.

 

Now I’m an acronym!  Golly gee whillickers!

My T.R.A.S.H. System will be tested in a few days.  I’ve had paint issues, and “life” has intervened.

 

I have no lights on my TP8.  On my Bay River Skiff, I have these, but never use them.  https://duckworks.com/portable-led-navigation-bow-lights/
 

Some sheath their bottoms, and some do not.  My TP8 is not.  I didn’t want to add the weight.  My BRS 15 Is, but I don’t have to lift it, either.

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Too much clamping pressure squeezes out the epoxy out of the joint.  I usually put a sheet of plastic on top, then a 2x6, then screw it down to the workbench with deck screws, or put weights on top.  The important thing with an epoxy joint is to get all the air gaps out of the joint.  Look to get “squeeze-out” of epoxy all around.  This is impossible to do with the scarf joint, because it is covered up.  So, I always use too much glue.  This forces me to use a heat gun and scraper to remove the excess.  But a starved joint is a very bad thing .

 

T-nuts are unnecessary in your oarlock attachment.  Mine are screwed in with two #10 wood screws (each).  They have not worked loose, and I’m a strong rower.  (I row 10 miles per week, weather permitting.)

 

The big question is— what are you using for plywood.  If you are using lumberyard fir plywood, you will want to sheath both sides, as it will check.  (See photo.) This is why I will never fir plywood again.

AD2178BC-499D-4139-ADF3-29F5ABC49744.thumb.jpeg.2ff664e0abe053834163cc9c52371a26.jpeg

 

Regarding the sheet block attachment to the boom.  I must say that anything that Graham commits to paper is proven and structurally sound.  He’s crossed many oceans.  You can trust his designs.  I have used T-nuts with mixed results.  Sometimes, the tangs scratch a little groove into the recess, and the whole thing spins.  I usually add a #4 FH screw to prevent that, but it is not ideal.  If this happens to you, and the T-nut is embedded in a gunwale or boom, you’ve got a big mess.  Here’s an alternative.  Drill a 1” hole through the boom crosswise.  Drill a 3/16” hole for the screw.  Slip a nut into this hole, and run the screw into it.  The points of the nut will dig into the wood, and bear the load.  Ideally, a square nut should be used, but a hexagonal nut will also work.  Leclerc uses this on their weaving looms.  My looms are decades old, and their attachments hold up to the pounding.  Try it on scrap wood.  It provides a sound, serviceable attachment method.AB2A41E7-FE54-4ED1-AA12-DCB71A0B6D72.thumb.jpeg.47896d4b093151be0ca0082a732fb9ab.jpeg

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Too much clamping pressure squeezes out the epoxy out of the joint.  I usually put a sheet of plastic on top, then a 2x6, then screw it down to the workbench with deck screws, or put weights on top.

 

T-nuts are unnecessary in your oarlock attachment.  Mine are screwed in with two #10 wood screws (each).  They have not worked loose, and I’m a strong rower.  (I row 10 miles per week, weather permitting.)

 

The big question is— what are you using for plywood.  If you are using lumberyard fir plywood, you will want to sheath both sides, as it will check.  (See photo.) This is why I will never fir plywood again.

AD2178BC-499D-4139-ADF3-29F5ABC49744.thumb.jpeg.2ff664e0abe053834163cc9c52371a26.jpeg

 

Regarding the sheet block attachment to the boom.  I must say that anything that Graham commits to paper is proven and structurally sound.  He’s crossed many oceans.  You can trust his designs.  I have used T-nuts with mixed results.  Sometimes, the tangs scratch a little groove into the recess, and the whole thing spins.  I usually add a #4 FH screw to prevent that, but it is not ideal.  If this happens to you, and the T-nut is embedded in a gunwale or boom, you’ve got a big mess.  Here’s an alternative.  Drill a 1” hole through the boom crosswise.  Drill a 3/16” hole for the screw.  Slip a nut into this hole, and run the screw into it.  The points of the nut will dig into the wood, and bear the load.  Ideally, a square nut should be used, but a hexagonal nut will also work.  Leclerc uses this on their weaving looms.  My looms are decades old, and their attachments hold up to the pounding.  Try it on scrap wood.  It provides a sound, serviceable attachment method.AB2A41E7-FE54-4ED1-AA12-DCB71A0B6D72.thumb.jpeg.47896d4b093151be0ca0082a732fb9ab.jpeg

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Regarding my T.R.A.S.H. system (love it), this is for experimentation only.  If I were to build again (likely), and I had a good understanding of it’s effectiveness, I’d build it into the forward portion.  
 

I also plan to experiment with additional removable floatation for the stern, if necessary.  But I’m limited there by my lazy sailing style.  

6348E1FC-5F24-42C5-A4F0-57D9E6337BD1.jpeg

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