Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 OKAY, I'm a Dummy, having gotten that out of the way ......... What the Blazes is the difference between a LAPPER and a GENOA ???? What changes to the sail layout required when using a furler, other than a "flat" panel(s) & "cut" to ensure that the sail powers up efficiently at various stages of "furl" and with the correct geometric angles to the luff of the leech & foot to ensure a liniar graduation of sail size ? Graeme ........ Nova Scotia graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul J [Aberdeen Wa] Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 Ok you're a dummy. I won't argue there. A lapper is a headsail [jib] that overlaps the mast, usually by less than 15% of the "J" a genoa is a headsail that overlaps the mast usually by 25% or more of the "J". Genoas can go as high in % as 185 of the "J" but for the most part are around the 153% size. Also genoa size can be limited by the placement of the shrouds. A boat with outboard shrouds will be limited to have the clew no farther aft than the forward shroud. A boat with inboard shrouds will not be limited in this manner and larger headsails can be designed and made for it. Ok now you ask what the heck is "J". Well it's very simple it is the measurement from the base of the headstay to the mast on a horizontal line. That's the "J". No there is no real change in the design of the sail as to whether or not it is roller reefed or not. Roller furling is not the proper term as it is stowing the sail not reefing or shortening the sail. By design a sail is fuller in the forward section of the sail than it is in the after sections of the sail. Fuller sails for lighter winds flatter sails for heavier winds. So when roller reefing a sail it becomes flatter as it is reefed. Now I have heard alot about roller furling sails and there are all kinds of talk about roller reefing. They are two completely different animals. Over the years I have never seen a roller reefing/furler that worked all that well that did not cost a small fortune. But on a small boat with low loads it can be done but just may not be all that efficient. That's ok most of them aren't anyway. Plus look at all the extra things that can go wrong. Remember Murphy's Law. And lets not forget the primary rule of boat building and other things "KISS" or better known as "Keep It Simple Stupid". I hope I addressed your questions without sounding like a complete ass. Paul J paul@ultasail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim Diebert Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 Man, Excellent information Paul. Thanks for that. You cleared up quite a few things for me. tim@timtone.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ray Frechette jr Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 What do you mean by inboard and outboard placement of the shrouds Paul? Is outboard when they are attached to the hull sides? And would inboard mean attachment to cabin trunk? Or is it something else entirely? I am quite interested in a lapper with a headsail reefing setup that would allow me to shorten sail if it get windier than expected. As long as the sail is moderately efficient fully deployed I would be happy. When reefed, efficiency can suffer some. Just having a roller furler is useless to my purposes, I can see a value for those who leave boat in the water all of the time, but I don't plan on doing that. The dual purpose furler reefers I have seen are in the $500.00 on up range, and I can't justify that. I would love to see a homemade unit that would do the job fairly well. refent@prodigy.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest capt jake Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 Well now I am confused. I have been talking with Paul about a roller furling system that we are designing. My understanding was taht it would allow one to reef the sail also. Kind of a combination jobby. jwentz4@attbi.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 Hi Paul, "I Second" Tim's comments exactly ! Your expertise and plain language, for those of us new to the sport, reply certainly cleared up the questions I had about the new to me term, "LAPPER", which I admit I had not heard before ! Your advice concerning the relationship of the clew to the forward shroud makes common sense. I have seen some rigs up here in Nova Scotia that would appear to have "crowded" that layout, however, I certainly can see the practical and geometric reasoning for that placement of the genoa track & clew.. Oh Well, "Different strokes" ! Again Paul, Thank you for clearing up the confusion ! BTW ... Did You receive my email ? SNUPI's DUMMY, Graeme, Nova Scotia graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ray Frechette jr Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 All roller reefers also furl, but not all roller furlers reef. And if we had this conversation at the highschool parking lot and were over heard, DEA may come knocking on our doors with thermal imaging cams. refent@prodigy.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ray Frechette jr Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 Yes Officer, One of them said "all roller reefers Hurl!" and the othr one said "not all hurlers roll reefers." refent@prodigy.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest capt jake Posted October 17, 2002 Report Share Posted October 17, 2002 jwentz4@attbi.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 Ahhh Geeez Ray, Now you got your mix all talked up and are balkin' tackwards ! Who's rollin' the reefer ???? Graeme graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul J [Aberdeen Wa] Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 Yeah Ray outboard shrouds have chainplates attached to the hull sides, inboard shrouds have the chainplates attached to a bulkhead and are usually just along side of the cabin trunk. Inboard shrouds are not an option for the stevenson designs. That's fine. As to the sail design it is of course designed to be sailed full and will be best in efficiency at that setting. When reefed it will flatten which is what you desire in higher winds. But remember most of your sailing will be with the sail set full only once in a while will you be reefing it. Before you reef the headsail you will take a reef in the main first, then if need be reef the headsail. Paul J paul@ultasail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul J [Aberdeen Wa] Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 Jake you where born confused. I just love to do that to you I just can't resist. It's to much fun to confuse you. Yeah we are working on a combination unit design but we will have to test it to see how it works before we can call it a good one. Don't be surprised if we do a re-design on it. I have made a couple of sketches of some different ideas on the unit and we can go over them when I come up after you flip the boat back over. No worries Mate. Paul J paul@ultasail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul J [Aberdeen Wa] Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 Where did you send it. It's not like I only have one email address. Paul J paul@ultasail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 Hi Paul, I sent it, ( 2 actually) to paul@ultrasail.com Nothing came back here, so it went "somewhere" ! Let me know if it hasn't arrived and I'll re-send them . Graeme, Nova Scotia graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul J [Aberdeen Wa] Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 That's why I have not gotten them. Paul J paul@ultasail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 Hi Paul, I dumped the "t" and resent the email a few minutes ago, ( 4:45 PM Atlantic time) It's really odd that the email to "paul@ultrasail.com" didn't get sent back to me ! Is there a competitor out there by that name ? let me know if this one makes the trip, as well as, your initial comments. Have a Great Weekend, Thanks, Graeme .... Nova Scotia graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Arnie Eaton Posted October 19, 2002 Report Share Posted October 19, 2002 Graeme!!! It's U L T A. ULTA ULTA ULTA paul@ultasails.com You're not the first one to make this mistake. aeeaton@cybernet1.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 19, 2002 Report Share Posted October 19, 2002 The "DUMMY puts his hand up AGAIN, Teacher ! QUESTIONS : From all I've read and seen first hand about the "Roller/ reefer/ Furler"question, and from what has been posted here, Please, Teacher, correct any misconceptions & confusions I may suffer from, A "FURLER" in it's own simplistic context is merely a storing facility for a headsail at the end of the day ! This, therefore, means that the foresail can simply be "wound around" a rotating forestay cable, but would not have any great resistance to "unfurling" or "Unwinding", twisting , etc., when "Wind loaded" at, shall we say for example, "Half furled position in a 25 knot breeze". A "ROLLER or REEFING FURLER", on the other hand as I understand it, is a device that enables the user to reduce the area of the foresail in a graduated manner while in use and in effect, horizontially "roller reef" the jib to a smaller size, consistant with the wind conditions at he moment ! The "winding mechanism employed in this system employs a sort of rotating track, ( either surrounding the forestay or becoming in fact, part of the forestay tensioning system), to attach the luff of the foresail, hense be rotated by the "Drum" attached to the base of this "tube". OKAY TEACH, Wuz I lurned rite bie yur teechin's and my past observatshuns, or duz I git to go two dat dere korner agin wit dat funy lukin' pointed hat on agin ? Graeme, Nova Scotia graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graeme"SNUPI bui Posted October 19, 2002 Report Share Posted October 19, 2002 Hey guys, Take a look at the first "page" of the linked site. They make " headsail Furlers & Reefers pretty plain and straight forward. Graeme.... Nova Scotia http://www.profurl.com/uk/produits/emmagasineur.htm graeme.realtor@ns.sympatico.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmike8 Posted October 19, 2002 Report Share Posted October 19, 2002 The reason you probably didn't get a bounce is because they turned off returns to keep from having spam relay problems. Mike mmullins@vallnet.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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