Howard

Rex: I switched from the monel staples to the Raptor, but am using the gun sold by Duckworks for the Redhawk system. Part of the reason I switched from the metal was the desire not to have to pull all those staples ( I was using about 15 to 20 per panel), and found it easy to break them during removal if not careful, leaving a leg or two in place anyway. I liked my Arrow staple gun a whole lot better, but it won't work with the Raptors. If I was going to build boats from now on, I'd probably pop for the Omer gun, but so far, the gun from Duckworks is working. But as for the Raptors, as long as you are careful to buck underneath them, they shoot just fine. If you fail to buck behind them, it will bounce and you won't get full penetration. But that is the way it is with either system.

I think the pictures help a lot. I'm not building this boat, but these would really help if I was. If it did not interfere with assembly, I would be tempted to try to glass the ballast tank panels before assembly, while I could lay them flat. Unless you are doing these all at once, with no breaks, the glassed panels will cure before you can get back to do the taped over fillets, so likely no chemical bond anyway. Or leave a bit of a margin at any junction of panels where your fillets are to go if you want the chemical bond. Also, it appears there are holes cut in some of these panels to allow the ballast water to flow in and out? If so, these would have to be sealed. In that case, a trick I sometimes use is to cut the hole twice. First time is with a hole saw that is about 1/2" larger diameter than I want to end up with....say 4 1/2". Then take the scrap from inside the hole saw and cut it again.......this time using the hole diameter I want to end up with.....say 4". So I"m then left with the flat panel, with oversized hole.....and the scrap from the hole saw. Lay the panel flat, put the scrap back in the hole and a gap of about 1/4"+ appears between the edge of the panel hole and the scrap. Center the scrap in the hole, then nail it into place so it doesn't move around and then pour thickened epoxy into the gap. It will seal the edge of the panel and create a hard epoxy bushing between the panel and scrap. When it's cured, cut the smaller diameter 4" hole out one more time. You will be left with a sealed up hole with a 1/4" hard epoxy rim. If you don't like the sharp edge, run a 1/8" round over bit over it. And again, all this can be done before it is ever installed.......while it is laying flat.

Chick: That helps. Is it possible to glass all these panels before they are assembled into the frame? While they can still be laid flat? Then fillet and glass over the fillets to install them? Second part.......this is essentially a closed box of 6 sides (four sides, top and bottom). Five of the six sides are not so hard as you can still get to them. How does one do a good job of sealing up the last side? Are there enough access ports on the top panel to be able to reach the entire interior to such a degree that you can do a good job of tabbing this to the bottom of the boat........fillets and tape? The saving grace of this would seem to be if it is entirely enclosed, and is only used to hold water, you don't have to have a perfect sanded smooth finish on it. Or maybe you do to keep any mud and debris in the water from sticking to the interior?

Not having seen the plans, having trouble visualizing the layout and design and thus difficulty of building this tank. How big and how is the interior structured. Are there pictures of one being built? Pictures of this one?

BTW, there is a secondary benefit to epoxy bushings beyond water intrusion. If bolts and nuts with washers are involved, it becomes a compression bushing to prevent compression of the wood when you tighten the nuts. Epoxy is rough on wood cutting tools, but drill bits will survive it just fine.

Is the panel already vertical or not yet installed? If not yet installed.....simply drill your hole oversize (my preference is to leave at least 1/8" margin, so 1/4" larger hole than needed. If the hole is really big, an even larger bushing of epoxy. Maybe as large as 1" drilled hole for a final bolt hole of 1/2".....or a 1/4" margin for your epoxy bushing. But if still flat, drill your oversized hole, tape the backside and pour slightly thickened epoxy in the hole.....leaving it just a bit proud. It will shrink as it soaks into the edge grain of the plywood and will also shrink a bit as it cures. Too proud and you get to sand off the surplus. BTW, when I mark out the hole, I don't do it with a little + to mark the center but a big one that has the ends extending beyond the margin of the pilot hole. So when you are ready to re-drill, you can find the center again. Also, if the marks for this hole are on the taped side, you won't sand them off when you sand the proud pour back down to flush. If the panel is already vertical, all is not lost. Same pilot hole, same marks, etc, but this time you put tape over both faces and inject the thickened epoxy in with a syringe and needle. With both sides taped up solid to the top of the hole, drill two small pilot holes into the top of the hole from above. Angle it in.....actually, drill two of these. One is to be used to inject the epoxy, the other is to let the air out. When the air hole fills up and epoxy oozes up and out, the taped up hole is full. When you are done, the epoxy bushing is poured and both pilot holes are sealed.

As someone who normally sails single handed, I built and used a windvane self steering arrangement on my existing glass boat, a 17 footer. Once you get it working right, it is amazing how well it steers a course. In fact, it did far better than I could. Sailing with a flock, gaggle (or more correctly fleet) of similar boats, once I set the vane, we would walk off and leave them......pointing higher and sailing faster. It never screws up. So I'm curious what Graham comes up with. I'm entirely in that camp that says no cruising boat should be without a wind controlled self steering device. And even more so if you sail alone. The only downside is if you fall overboard you better be a really good swimmer. It ain't stopping or coming back to get you. Option B, for the hopelessly curious, is a sheet to tiller self steering arrangement. Since the cat ketch rig already does a pretty good job of self steering, a sheet to tiller rig might graft on to it pretty well. That is my current plan for the Princess.

Now that I think about it a bit more......is this not a case of "back to the future"? Are those not unlike leeboards in function? Didn't they invent the CB to get rid of leeboards?

Can't tell from the videos, but curious if those daggerboards have a camber in the chord (say 2412 vs 0012 NACA foil shape), to give them additional lift in one direction, with the opposite in the other? Also......are they mounted parallel to the centerline or at an angle to give additional lift? Second, is there some mechanical mechanism to raise and lower these boards when tacking? Automatically, or does the skipper / crew also have to raise and lower the boards in addition to working the jib sheets when tacking? Don't know if the boats have been built to test it, but what would matter would be the best of these two boats matched against an identical boat with only one board (ooxx naca foil) on the centerline. But if there was an advantage, would racing rules allow its use? If not, what would you be left with? A recreational boat that would point a few degrees higher? Is that worth the effort? Also curious that on two otherwise similar boats, a normal main and the fathead seem to be sailing the same. If so, so much for that hype. On a Spindrift, if she was not sailing flat enough, I'd think it easier to hike out. And BTW, doesn't this only matter when pointing to the max?

The important thing is you recognize when it's happening............otherwise you start "scaring the straights". In later videos, that same GIS can be shown to be sporting a small mizzen. And in yet other places, it is discussed how to sail that same boat, with a mizzen, when the wind is up and honking....... http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/design/rig/sails/sailing-unstayed-cat-ketches-and-cat-yawls-safely-and-efficiently-downwind-in-strong-winds/ That "by the lee" technique appears to be a good one and something most sailing a cat ketch should be aware of.

I have used these with good success: http://www.thepaintstore.com/SHUR_LINE_1_Gal_Paint_Mixer_06200C_p/06200c.htm I also use them to mix epoxy. About 10 seconds or so with one of those and you are good to go. You could mix batches as small of one or two pumps all the way up to quart sized batches and larger. They really work.

I am aware of and think I understand the nature of the stem cap. In fact, I already have one cut out and ready to go. What I am noticing on Wayne's photos is he appears to have gone one step further and added what looks to be a cap on his stem knee, as well as what may be an additional cap on the bottom of the forward keel section. If you look at the progression of his photos, they show how the bottom panels come together and are initially rounded over at the base of the stem, to the stem knee and alongside the keel planks. As it appears to come together through this section, which shows on the plans to be rounded over as Wayne did initially, there will be exposed edges of plywood on the forward most bottom panels, as well as the solid lumber that is the stem, stem knee and forward keel planks. Kinda resembles pants that are unzipped. He then goes from what was rounded over stem knee to what becomes a straight stem knee section covered by a rounded over solid wood cap. Since that cap does not appear on the plans, it looks like he may have freelanced this part to put a hard durable edge at what I think is called the "cutwater". If not for this cap, it would need some type of really hard, durable edge put on it as this will be the point where the boat makes contact with anything floating, groundings, beachings, etc. My plan was several layers of glass or perhaps xynole or dynel. If a person used wood, it had best be hard and durable, and perhaps something you might want to be able to replace? On the other hand, this might be more of an imagined problem than a real one. My existing glass boat is 35 years old and it has a few dings and scratches up there, but nothing major. As for a cap of any exposed plywood edges along the keel (will only apply to the first foot or so, I wonder what might happen if a person used a solid bar of 1" to 1.5" x 3/16" copper or silicon bronze for this edge? It could double as a skid plate forward, PLUS a lightning grounding plate at the base of the forward tabernacle. Run a bronze bolt through the keel to the base of the tabernacle and terminate your grounding wire from the masthead at this point? Not sure if that gives you enough grounding dispersion area, but you could run it back along the keel as far as you needed to.

Still plugging away at this as time allows. To finish up the fairing at the bow, I expanded my use of fairing strips to make it a solid run forward of BH#1. That's where it gets complicated. Without being able to butt to the adjacent panel, getting the angle of these right is tough as there is some twist to them that throws the dimensions off a bit. Making this section solid, using thin fairing strips stapled into place helps an "iffy eye" see this take shape. Looks like I'm getting there, but still need to do some more pruning at the bow. For now, am only working on one side. Once that looks right, will be easier to get the opposite side to match. Did a test to mimic Wayne's use of a chine log between the stem and BH#1. That does make it easier to attach the panels, but not too much of it can stick up, else it will push the chine edge of the bottom panel outward as it bends over the edge of the chine log. If not kept short, it will have to be beveled.....that would be a complicated rolling bevel. This mostly applies to the part aft of BH#1, where the side and bottom panels intersect at some angle. Forward near the bow, bottom panels and side panels make a nearly vertical butt joint. Chine log could be used like this with clear tape on it to prevent epoxy sticking to it. Simply screw it into place, use it to screw to, then remove it to add glass tape inside after the chine edge is set with epoxy. Have also begun the process of rounding over the bow section, as that is part of the keel fairing process. If you go back to post 135, (http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8440-princess-26/page-7)%C2'> you may recall the way this stem, stem knee and keel planks came together differed from the plans somewhat. Not sure if it was something I did or some other glitch, but at any rate, it is now time to deal with the change. Not a big deal, but the outcome will differ from that shown in the plans somewhat. I notice Wayne put a solid wood cap on the bow. That is not shown in the plans, but may not be a bad idea. That is the tip of the spear that is the boat, so whatever is found there needs to be durable.

Thanks Wayne: Looks like you managed to maintain a V joint nearly all the way forward, with no separation of the panel ends until the last foot or so. I spoke to Graham and that was his intent, so that's where I'm headed. For some reason, it also appears your stringers do a better job of aligning to the keel than mine do. Depending you how you interpret the language in the plans ("space the stringers evenly through the bulkheads"...........evenly from the edge of the chine to the top of the keel or evenly from the edge of the chine to the edge of the keel?), that holds potential to alter things in an adverse way. I divided up the open space, but perhaps should have considered the tip of the keel at it's apex to edge of the chine as area to divide. That is the total end to end span of the panel. Yes, a complicated area to consider. It may also matter that I have yet to cutout / round over that fore foot section, as per plans. I expect that to change the appearance of it some. Also appears you made some modifications from the plans. You appear to have doubled the stem cap and added hardwood cap to the fore foot and perhaps a bit along the bottom edge of the keel, aft a few feet? Hardened edges for the tip of the spear?

BTW, one of my quick and dirty methods of making a radius tool for fillets is to use hole saws. Punch a hole through scrap plywood or cheap luan subfloor base and save the part left inside the hole saw. It helps that I have a collection of hole saws from 1" all the way up to 6". If you feel the need to have a handle on it, leave a wet epoxy mixing stick on one edge.

Bob: Where did you find this formula? I've seen the first part (re: radius = 3x ply thickness) in numerous locations, but none of those included the last part, which expands the formula to take into account the angle of the joint. This was discussed in the epoxy tricks thread, starting with post #30: http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8928-epoxy-tricks/page-2 We kicked it around a lot, but still find no mention of modifying the 3x formula to account for the angle. Makes sense to do so, just not sure why none of the other reference sources mentioned it. So to put some numbers to your formula, assume 1/2" plywood and three joint options: 90 degree joint 120 degree obtuse joint 60 degree acute joint 90 degree joint: r = (3 * .5) x tan (90 / 2) r = 1.5 x tan 45 r = 1.5 x 1.0 r = 1.5 (diameter of tool is then 3 inches) 120 degree obtuse joint: r = (3 * .5) x tan (120 / 2) r = 1.5 x tan 60 r = 1.5 x 1.732 r = 2.598 (diameter of tool is then 5.196 inches : or somewhere around 5 to 5 1/4 inches would work - PAR's reference to the 4.75" CD might also work) 60 degree acute joint: r = (3 * .5) x tan (60 / 2) r = 1.5 x tan 30 r = 1.5 x 0.577 r = 0.866 (diameter of tool is then 1.732 inches: or 1.75 inches) Experience tells me these would make sense. Still curious where you found the formula to include the modification using tangent of the angle?

Wayne: That looks familiar. Hoping mine turns out that well. Part of my trouble with seeing this fit together is the angle of my temp battens may not be true to the way they will align once the actual bottom panels arrive at the stem. Yours appear to have more angle to them, but that would all depend on the angle we each started with. I think I now have it in good enough shape aft I can continue moving forward. Perhaps by the time I arrive at the stem, a solution will have presented itself? But in the meantime, I should keep moving forward. It's not like I get to skip enclosing the bow section. Has to be built somehow.

One more trick, and perhaps this should be mentioned on the tools and tricks thread. When I started to remove the screws that held the stringers to the stem knee, the first one snapped right off. It was stainless and will be buried, so it will be left, but wanted to avoid doing that again if I could. I was using a small hammer drill, which has the torque, but does jolt it pretty good. Sometimes it breaks loose but sometimes it snaps off the screws. What to do to avoid snapping screws? To anyone who has spent much time on the boat building threads, especially woodenboat, you are probably familiar with the name Bob Smalser and his expertise with old time tools. A long time ago, I was reading a piece by Bob about the best tool to use to install or extract screws and that was an old time brace. A brace would allow you all the torque you would ever need, plus it goes slow and you can actually feel when the resistance starts to ramp up. It also turns out that modern six sided driver bits will fit into a brace chuck with no modifications needed. With the brace, I managed to pull all the remaining screws without breaking any of them. Moreover, they came out like they wanted out. It also worked like magic to set the depth of those side panel edges to allow you to align the edge of the panel to the chine edge.

Managed to spend part of a day working on the fairing in the forward section of the keel to enable me to move forward in a more timely and accurate manner. So here are some progress photos showing solutions and a potential issue I'm looking for advice on how to resolve. As I'm seeing it, despite the increasing curvature of these bottom forward panels, the 7 degree or so bevel on the keel planks seems to carry forward a lot farther than I expected it to. Seems to work pretty well until the panel ends that affix to the keel plank work forward of BH#2, by which time, the forward ends are somewhere between 2' and 3' forward of BH#2 along the chine. Keel planks then require an increasing taper until just aft of BH#1 at the keel. What is supposed to happen with the keel forward of BH#1 has me stumped. At the stem itself, bottom panels have to be nearly vertical as there is no way to bend them, yet the aft edge of the forward most panel begins to twist almost immediately, with as much as half an inch or so of twist needed to conform a 6" wide panel to the chine edge of the side panel, the stringers and to butt up to the keel planks. By the time you move aft of the stem and stem knee even a foot, some bevel is needed, but with three points already touching (bottom panel edge at the chine.....lower stringer, upper stringer and then on to the keel) not nearly enough bend in the bottom panel is possible to reach the centerline. So somewhere within a span of 30 inches or so, you have to go from attaching the side panels to the keel planks from nearly vertical on the side of the keel planks at the stem to more horizontal on the bottom as you move aft to BH#1. I"m not sure where that point is or what the overall shape of it should be. Photos show where I left it at the end of the day, which is not finished, but figured I'd better get some advice before I continue farther. Basically, the forward most section seems to need to transition from a partially exposed keel plank to to one that is covered by the bottom panels. How that transition takes place or the shape it needs to take is a mystery to me. One thing about hacking around on the keel planks.........by the time you reach this stage, you and they are far enough along you won't be replacing them, so when you start removing wood to get the shape right, you remove what you need to remove, and no more. Putting it back on is not an option. More bottom panel notes/observations: Plans suggest you will go from notching the side panels along the chine until you get about 2 feet aft of BH#1, and which point you start a butt joint process that will eventually lead to full on butt joints at the stem. That 2' aft of BH#1 location is spot on. Problem then becomes finding a way to join the edges when there is nothing to clamp or hold to. After some head scratching, this is what I came up with. Using a 2" wide scrap of plywood salvaged from waste and drops, butting one edge against the side and the other end under the stringer. A drywall screw through that will draw the edge down as far as you need it to and is strong enough to hold it in place until you can get an epoxy spot weld in place. This butt joint at the chine will be heavily glassed inside and out, with a large fillet over the inside joint, so I'm not too concerned about it holding long term. I put these screw held clamps under some really severe bends.....to the point of thinking the plywood would surely snap, but they held fast. With a wider 6" panel, one on other edge should do the trick. Last photo shows the amount of twist needed to close in the forward section. It is a lot. Last photo also shows the scaffold system I devised to buck up beneath the stringers to give them support. Even with that in place, they deflect down a bit from the bending pressure forward and aft of of that scaffold slightly, but not enough to matter. (6 foot span has been cut to 3 foot). I plan to leave these temp shaping battens in place once I resume planking, so they offer some resistance too. But back the shape of the stem, forward of BH#1, what have others done? Wayne? Brent? Charlie? Chick? Anybody? Photos would help visualize what it is supposed to look like.

Rex: Have not had much chance to work on this since the last post, but have been doing some head scratching on ways to resolve some problems I'm seeing. Getting the stringers in place was not such a big deal. Moving forward from there has been a bit more of a challenge. There is a 6 foot plus span between BH#1 and BH#2. Purpose of the stringers in this area, as I understand it, is not so much for structural strength after the build is completed (as is the case with stringers on glass boats), but rather as a support for the panels during construction to force them into the correct bend. Problem being that with such long span, the plywood panels are stiffer than the stringers, so as I attempt to force the curve into them, they push the stringers aside. I think I have solved much of that problem by building a support scaffold in the middle, so the stringers can't deflect. The panels still don't lay flat on them, so next step will be to plane a flat on the high side of each one. Also, it is apparent that my eye isn't good enough to work with a single batten to fair the keel planks and stringers, so I have cut and installed a set of 2" battens, spaced about 8 inches apart. These will be temporary, but used to make sure the keel planks and stringers all line up well and will be supported. These will run all the way forward to the bow. In retrospect, should have done this in the beginning. Photos of this will follow and will make a lot more sense than my description has. Also working on finding a way to get the forward most panel edges to line up with the side panel edges on the chine. This is forward of the area with the notched panels. I would describe this as a rolling butt joint, if there is such a thing. Have some ideas but have not yet resolved a solution that works for me. I think some have used chine logs, but I'm trying to avoid using solid wood as much as possible. Again, future photos will make this a lot simpler to understand. I've got work deadlines looming, so have not been able to work on this as much as I would like. Still hoping to get her buttoned up and the entire bottom on before cold weather shuts me down. That will be in a month or so. Anyway, hope what I have shared is useful. If you hurry and get busy, you can pass me and then I'll get to follow along behind you!

CB and rudder.

On second thought, it is on the trailer bow forward. You can see the mast step forward of the cockpit. Chainplates are right for that too.

OK, I now have the staple gun sold by Duckworks as the Red Hawk. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/tools/redhawk/20g-staplers/air.htm I got the Raptor staples vs. the Red Hawk brand as they appeared to be a bit heavier (19 gauge vs. 20) Price was about the same. First glance, gun will work, but with some concern. Gun has a safety lever on the trigger, but once you lift that, gun will fire. I shot a staple 20 feet or so to prove it. (My Arrow pneumatic will not fire unless the head is pressed down......that seems safer to me). So which staple....the Raptor or 1/2" monel....... might hold better? I shot both through a long 2" wide strip of 1/4" plywood into a foot long piece of 3/8" ply, as is the case building the Princess, then bent the 1/4" ply over a fulcrum and started bending to see which staple would pull out first. It was always the monel. That surprised me. So I tried Raptors in both sides and it took nearly double the bending force to get either side to pull out. As noted, they are fragile in shear, but the legs appear to hold pretty well in tension, which is their main job. I got the 9/16" and will max PSI, the crowns remain slightly proud, so will shear off easily, leaving only the legs in the finished hull. Anyway, these appear like they will do the job, which is to hold the plywood panels down and in place until the epoxy cures, then go away. Intending to try the next set of panels with them, and if all goes well, finish the boat with them. Paul (PAR) is correct. The Raptors have 1/2" crown. The Arrow staples have a 3/8" or so crown and Raptors will not fit into the Arrow gun. The crown is too wide.

While I think it may be similar to the Y-flyer, I see enough differences to make me think that is not it. Among other things, this mystery boat had a rudder head that went through a shaft log to a swept back, inboard rudder. It almost appears to me the boat is sitting on the trailer backwards, as I think that is the shaft log I see hanging down. If not, what kind of boat would have a pipe like that hanging down from the bow? If that is the stern we are seeing, I also think that is a boomkin, and there was also something similar on the bow with an eye to attach the fore-stay for the jib. I don't have those metal pieces, but could likely get them. The CB is similar in shape to the Y-flyer, but was lifted with a winch, mounted on the aft end of the CB trunk. Just a 1/8" steel cable that went to the tip of the aft or trailing edge of the CB. Seems like that would cause a lot of drag, but a lot of boats used that type of lifting system. BTW, both the CB and rudder are flat plat steel. Probably no more than 3/16" thick. So much for lifting foils.

A friend called the other day to ask if I would be interested in a free Laser hull and some other sailboat parts. In this case, it was a CB and rudder from an older homemade boat. History is, friend kept the Laser and other boat at a lake home, which was hit by lightening and destroyed by fire. All that was salvaged were the Laser hull (all other parts, such as mast, boom, foils, sails, rigging, etc) were properly stored inside the home, so they burnt up. The other boat was also burnt, except the CB and rudder were salvaged. Home built boat probably dates to the 50's or 60's and looks to me like it may be some type of racing scow. The CB and rudder are both both flat plate steel and are both in good condition if anyone has a use for them. Probably need to ID the boat type to know if any of this is of use. Don't have pics of the CB and rudder, but can get them. The trailer also survived, but would need new tires. Worst case scenario, CB and rudder and trailer are steel. Sell it by the pound!