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CS 17, Mk 3 "Just in Time"


IsZataRock

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Hi Folks,

 

I'm a newbie to this forum so perhaps I should introduce myself.  Hal Link.  Sailor since I was able to find and fix up my first boat (a semi-rotted out Snipe) at the age of 15.  Scars on my right hand to remind me that I'm somewhat inept with tables saws and other power tools.  Long time multihull guy who has, in recent years, found that having a decent place to sleep on board is more important than going fast.  I've jousted with Dawn Patrol and her intrepid crew on more than one occasion in the Everglades Challenge And I was impressed with her ability to stay with my faster and considerably less comfortable cats and trimarans.  So when Doug told me about the Mark 3 series, I thought long and hard about it for about a week.  Then began the conversations with Carla to get a kit for the 17'.

 

The kit arrived in November last year and I'm currently gluing seams and bulkheads.  Not a particularly fast or efficient builder, I guess.  I plan to name my boat "Just in Time" because I'm hopeful that it'll be done in time for me to have a few good years cruising around before I retire to my rocking chair. And that would fulfill a dream I've had ever since I crossed Lake Mendota the first time and had to turn around.  It is SO much better to be able to keep going, don't ya think?

 

OK, now to my current dilemma.  Can you help me understand the water ballast system on the Mark 2 and Mark 3s?  We are to fill and empty using an Anderson bailer accessed through the hatch that is forward on the cockpit sole.  With the boat still and well loaded, the ballast tank fills.  When the boat is moving faster than, what 3 mph?, or perched on the trailer, it drains.  No pumps are needed. The ballast tank is comprise of only the forward section of the cockpit module.  The section behind Bulkhead 5 is dry but not accessible after construction.  Is this correct?  What else should I know about it?

 

Also, what thoughts have been suggested for battery placement?  I'd like to carry a healthy battery for lights, navigation, and steering.  Seems appropriate to dedicate room adjacent to or in the ballast tank.

 

I know that Graham has thought all this stuff out.  But I'm hoping to minimize my questions to him and make good use of this forum.  You folks have already given me a wealth of information.

 

Hal 

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Hal, you are right about the position of the tanks and their purpose.  I have a cantilever plug in addition to the Andersen for bailing and filling.  

 

I plan to add an inspection tank to the aft air tank since I go up and down a thousand feet (at least) every time I sail.

 

Graham was talking about installing a battery case just forward of the ballast tank that would also serve as a step.  I'm now thinking of that.

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Thanks, Doug.

 

Your cantilever plug is from bicycle cantilever brake applications?  10 mm?

 

Good idea on venting the air space.  I reckon 0.5 psi / 1000 ft elevation.  Doesn't sound like much but that's 72 lbs on a one square foot panel.  I have 5,000 feet between my house and the Eisenhower Tunnel if I go to Lake Dillon.  My cataraft bladders can get very unhappy.  How about the sealed compartment under the anchor well?

 

The cabin sole ahead of the ballast tank is a nice low spot in the hull.  But also takes up valuable space in the cabin.  A big hatch in the cockpit sole behind the tank is likely to leak.  It's always a compromise, eh?

 

Hal

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welcome Hal, good to see your at it so to speak (don't forget the pics)

for airing out my compartments I've has good experience with Duckworks  quick release inspection/deck plates, even after an extended capsize they remained watertight, plus at 8'' they also give me additional storage should I need it.

 

John Farrell

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Welcome. Sounds like a similar thought to why I'm building my CS20.3. I decided on the 20 because I day sail a lot and sometimes have more passengers than the 17 would hold. I recognize your name from watching the EC. Its a plan to enter someday, but if I'm hauling a boat all the way from NY I want to make sure its worthy and that I have a place to sleep.

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Thanks for the welcome!

 

In keeping with established practice and John's reminder, here are a few pictures of my building efforts:

 

post-4028-0-92991300-1426530870_thumb.jpg

 

It may turn out twisted.  But it looks ok here.  A wedge under the port aft leg of the building stand was all I needed to get it as good as my eyes can see.

 

post-4028-0-75308100-1426530923_thumb.jpg

 

I don’t have cool lead weights like Graham.  So I used what I have for another project that waits for the day when I’m not building boats.  The hull panels were pretty stubborn and didn’t want to spread out to match the cradle and this bulkhead.  So wire ties to the cradle (barely visible to the left and right of the weighted bulkhead and 120 lbs of weight encourage better behavior.  

 

post-4028-0-28985700-1426531014_thumb.jpg

 

I went a little overboard with Alan’s suggestion of tack-welding the seams as seen on the left where the sanded tack welds can be seen as I placed them between each of the wire ties.  Center and right seams are primed in preparation for goop and tape.  This morning’s work was priming and gooping.  Lunch now then tape this PM.  I am “systematically” working around the hull so that I can straighten stubborn panels and strengthen some areas to support my weight when I goop and tape places I can’t reach from outside.

 

Learning to post to web sites seems to be every bit as difficult as building a boat.  Any tricks to facilitate that process here would be greatly appreciated!!

 

Hal

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I am happy to see a 17.3 build in the Denver area. I am in Aurora and look forward to following a build where I will have a better chance of seeing the finished product. You look like you are off to a good start.

Please keep the pictures coming and Post where you will be splashing your boat so I have a chance to see another CS in Colorado.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Terry,

 

Thanks for the reminder.  I'm not too good at documentation.  Especially when I'm having so much fun building.  Plus I can't remember how I posted pictures last time.  I have asked Frank, our forum help guy, for help.  For now, I'll share the progress with words.

 

Yesterday I finally finished fitting the cabin top.  I assembled and epoxy-coated the bottom of the four cabin top pieces on a table before fitting on the boat.  Then had to wrestle hard to get the shear strakes to line up with the edge of the top.  But I've finally got it using an augmentation of the tie wire technique I'll share later.  Other than some epoxy in my hair, all is good.  I should be able to snip the tie wires later today and get the tape over the joints.  I've fit the hanging knees already but won't glue them in place until the longitudinal seams are done.

 

I filled in the center of the companionway hatch with 1/4" ply.  This makes going forward more athletic than I might be able to stand in the long run.  But it helped control the installation, improves drip control, and can be removed easily enough later if I decide to.

 

My friend, Paul Breeding, helped me remove the legs from the construction stand since I no longer need access to the bottom of the boat and climbing even a 3-step ladder 50 times a day gets old.  If I had it to do again, I would have removed the legs quite a while ago.  Now a 10" stool is all I need to make the big step into the cockpit over the transom.

 

Last night, in an exceptional bout of extra energy (feelin' good after finally getting the cabin top tacked down, I guess), I started dinking with the cockpit seats and back rests.  Holy Cow!  This boat is looking good!  I might get it launched this year after all. 

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Ahhh!  Thanks, Frank!

 

I need to use the "More Reply Options" to get to the "Attach Files" option.

 
So, the pictures:
 
post-4028-0-49479900-1429203054_thumb.jpg
 
First shows the cabin top tie-wired to the shear strakes.  You can see the 1/4" ply filler in the companionway.  This piece helped produce a consistent curve to the top.  And will hopefully help me keep water out of the cabin.
 
post-4028-0-05937300-1429203173_thumb.jpg
post-4028-0-86788600-1429203221_thumb.jpg
 
Second and third, my augmentation of tie wires.  Sometimes wires can't pull the parts into alignment very well.  So I added 3/8" dowels to the inside of the cabin top and plywood pads to the outside.  The dowels give a better angle to the wires to pull the strakes outward.  The plywood presses against the edge of the top pushing it inward.  Those add-ons and robust use of my pliers to pull and twist got the job done: bottom edge of top aligned with outside edge of strake.
 
I considered adding a cleat along the inside of the cabin top but didn't want to take the top off again and futz with fitting a cleat.  Alan reports that B&B might add gear teeth to that joint.  That would be WONDERFUL.  It's amazing how stubborn 1/4" ply can be!
 
Hal
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Thanks for sharing Hal. It looks like you are making good progress.

 

I am not sure if watching other peoples builds satisfies my desire to build another boat or just makes me want to build one more. 

 

I started my CS20 in November of 2002 and had her in the water in August of 2003. She is never going to actually be finished, whatever finished is.

 

 I suspect a Mk3 is twice the work of a Mk I. It looks to me like you are making good progress toward a launch this summer. 

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Looks great! All this activity on these Mk IIIs is good motivation. I like the cabin top alignment ideas. Unfortunately, I am not nearly as fast as you guys are, but the upside is I can learn. I noticed you went with a forward hatch. Is that final? I think that is the one area there is going to be a of of differences. I keep changing my mind!

 

Take Care,

Steve

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I am glad to see that Hal was careful about pulling the cabin top flush to the sheer strake and getting the panels fair and tight before gluing. Remember that once you glue it, you own it. It is worth spending a little extra time fussing before you glue. 

 

If you watch the video of the CS20 mk3 going 3d, you will see a faster way of pulling the sheer strake out to the line of the cabin top. After the pre-drilled holes are wired, there will be places where the sheer strake will be inside the line of the cabin top. Gently run a screw from the outside through a ply pad, up close the top edge with the screw going into the side and the pad pressing against the top so that it will draw the side out to the top. The gently part means that if you run the screw with a heavy hand, you will strip out the thread in the 6mm side. It is best to pre-drill the pad and draw the screw in until the the side just comes out to position and STOP.

 

The video shows the bottom being drawn out to the side but it does the same job. Do not worry about more holes in your pretty cabin, they will be filled as you are filleting the inside joint.

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Ha!  Several was to skin the cat.  Poor kitty!

 

Graham, perhaps the video I found (3Ding Doug's CS20Mk3) was the wrong video.  There were nothing on it showing the technique you describe.  Still, I get the idea and like it.  I might suggest that the "gentle" pull could be improved by putting the screw hole 3/8" from the edge of the shear strake and a pilot hole 3/8" from the edge of a second piece of ply or OSB inside.  Now the threads can't strip out.  Hard to tell if I would have had problems with thread stripping.  It was hard to pull the wires by hand.  But a screw has SO much more leverage .  Why didn't I think of that??

 

Thanks for the acknowledgement about "getting it right."  It would have been easier to lose a 1/4" or so across my cabin top.  Who would know?  But then the hanging knees would need to be trimmed.  And, yes, I would know.

 

Steve, good luck with that competition thing!  I'm retired and widowed.  So I can spend way more time building my boat than folks with a life.  Besides, the joy is the journey, right?

 

Terry, 9 months seems like a short time to build a CS20 regardless of Mk number.  Especially if you had other things to do with your time.  Maybe it's the male version of carrying a child (less the pain at the end).  I sure wouldn't want to do it again anytime soon.  Besides, like you say, boats are never really "done."  Ha!  Neither is raising kids!

 

Hal

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Ahh! Another unfolding.  You guys are getting smoother every time.

 

I also see the chine alignment trick.  I meant to, but apparently did not, take pictures of similar pads I used in the same place on my boat.  I put a pad on both the inside and outside with a clearance hole through the hull halfway between the wire ties.  Your method is easier.  And certainly for that area, the forces are small enough that double pads are not needed. 

 

I also put a block inside for the keel seam with pads outside to force alignment in the lower bow area.  The inner block was a bit tricky to fit and even trickier to place by myself.  But it worked nicely.  Panels in that section want to overlap.  I probably should have been more aggressive in preparing the edges before unfolding.  It needs more of a chamfer than a rounding there, I think.

 

Working on the cockpit lockers today.  All longitudinal joints are taped on the inside forward of the BH 3.  Still have to smooth and tape the outsides of those seams, fit the hanging knees, tape the forward bulkheads to the upper panels. etc, etc, etc.

 

Can anyone point me to plans or pictures of companionway closures?  I'm thinking of using a single drop board down the opening in BH3.  It won't seal, but being almost vertical, I'm hoping it won't leak much either.  Then use a fairly normal hatch design for both the forward and main hatches.  Bungie cord closures on the inside do most of the work but the main hatch needs something to hold it down on the outside at the aft edge.  Preferable something easy AND lockable.  Bungie cords inside let me hold down the forward or aft edge as a poor man's pivot.  Or by hooking all around, they apply nice even pressure to the seal.  It's all somewhat speculative, though.  I've never built a boat big enough to to get inside before!

 

Hal

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  • 3 months later...

Well, folks, it's been a while.  Sorry.

 

My boat is very slowly approaching launch.  I thought I was pretty close in early June when I got the cockpit put together and was ready to roll it over to finish the bottom.  Oh, no!  It isn't that easy!

 

I don't have a lot of room in my garage, so I rigged some pulleys that hang from my garage ceiling.  And I rigged some climbing ropes around the boat.  This system worked pretty well to support the boat and enable easy rotation by myself.  I feel a lot better about it now that I've reinforced the ceiling with some posts and a beam across the middle over the boat.  Hate to pull my house down!  I have some nifty cataraft bladders that support the cockpit sides and cabin top over the floor.  Very soft and squishy.

 

Since then I've glassed the bottom, added the keel strip, and gotten most of the rough spots smoothed over.  Along the way I think I've learned a little about peel ply, filling/sanding/filling/sanding/etc, and paint.  I need to buy more, but I plan to coat the bottom and sides with white epoxy primer to cover the ugly patches of white filler over the brown wood substrate.  Then launch and enjoy my boat for a couple months this season.  This fall/winter, I'll do a lot more filling/sanding/filling/sanding/etc and apply the fancy-dan, two-part polyurethane for next year's beautiful boat.

 

My hatch system (two top hatches and on companionway (vertical) hatch) seem to be working out well but I'll know better once I get the boat on the water.

 

I bought a beautiful and expensive trailer from Shoreland'r that should fit the boat perfectly.  We'll know in a few weeks.

 

Wouldn't you know that, right now, in the final stages before launch, I'm taking a couple weeks off for a river rafting trip.  Gotta go enjoy the water while it's still liquid.  This is Colorado after all!

 

Hal

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Glad to see that you're almost ready to "hit the water". I'm jealous! "Life" is holding me up with Summer Breeze, my CS-17 Mk-2. I'm struggling along as best I can in my "spare" time. Did your cabin top fit ok at bulkhead 2? The top is not wide enough on my boat. The bulkhead is in the right location according to the marked lines on the hull panels, but...

 

Wow, you were able to flip in our garage---that's great. Not enough height in mine. I'll have to pull mine out in the gravel drive way and get friend help turn her with "sheer strength and force of will".

 

Let's see some pictures soon!

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Ok, Ok!  I like to see your pictures too.  So, hopefully, I'll be able to figure out how to post a couple of mine:

 

post-4028-0-34031000-1437951494_thumb.jpg

 

This is my baby sitting on her new trailer and enjoying the outdoors for the first time.  The trailer needs some sort of hull support forward because the nice bunks are designed to balance a tail-heavy motorboat.  What's one more thing to build, eh?  I DO like my trailer, though.  It has a fold-away tongue and can fit inside the garage.  That will help keep the rain and snow off.

 

The white transom is the result of two coats of Awlgrip Epoxy Primer 545 which came out pretty good for a primer.  The bottom, which you can't see, is also done that way.  Those two areas were all I could squeeze out of one quart of paint.  Now that I see how awful the boat looks with white filler in various places along the sides, I guess I have to get some more primer and clean things up a bit more.  After much consternation about what paint to use, I think I'll stay with two-part epoxy primer so I don't close the door on an LPU finish.  But I'm shifting to System 3, water based primer.  Hopefully the smell will be a little easier to take.  The plan is to make the boat "presentable" for a first launch in August and then do the fine finishing this winter.

 

post-4028-0-62914700-1437951528_thumb.jpg

 

This picture shows my hatches from the outside.  Sorry, you can't see the bungie cords that will hold them in place.  Not because they are on the inside of the cabin.  But because I haven't attached them yet.  There will be one, double cord over the aft part of the aft top hatch that will button things up when I am outside of the cabin.  That one isn't installed yet either.  I probably won't get to that part of the project until I return from a week-long raft trip on the main stem of the Salmon River starting soon.  I PROMISE, I'll post some more pictures of that hatches when they're available.

 

Holy Cow!  I just previewed the post and saw that I got the pictures in ok.  Amazing! 

 

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