Kudzu Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Working on the new Greenland design. I have three versions. A multi-chine, a hard chine and sort of a hybrid muiti-chine. That latter having more one chine but less than the multi-chine. There are good and bad about all of them. When designing a boat it is always good to have design goals laid out so you can make choices about that you want to compromise. I had basically none going into this except to look very traditional. So now I have painted myself into a corner. Out of curiosity, rate the following for me from most important to least important. 1. Ease and speed of construction Weight of the boat. 2. Stability 3 Resistance/ ease of paddling 4. Speed potential. PS> I started that wrong, I meant weight. Mutli-chine are heavier naturally and I am pretty spoiled with my 28 lb Shad. Sorry about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapecodJohn Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 , rate the following for me from most important to least important. . 1 Speed potential 2.Resistance/ ease of paddling 3. Stability 4. Weight ( I consider all your designs "easy") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 They made all kinds of different types of kayak in different parts of Greenland, so no matter what, your boat can look traditional. Just make it, then find the region it looks most like. You may be making an Aleut style kayak, after all. In a boat I'm not going to roll, and I ain't rolling anything with a cockpit this big, I value a little stability. At least a healthy dose of secondary... Speed and resistance/ease of paddling are sorta interrelated, but they would be next, in no particular order. Ease and speed of construction are the icing on the cake. I really do dig the crazy bows and sterns on some of the Greenland kayaks. Apparently they give buoyancy in a brace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DURRETTD Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 3 Resistance/ ease of paddling 1. Ease and speed of construction Weight of the boat. 4. Speed potential. 2. Stability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrankel Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Dear Jeff: You are one of only a few people in the world who have the skill, experience and platform to create and market an sof design so wonderful that when people see it, they will realize it is better than what they thought they wanted -- but didn't know it. In other words, you can create a market. Your inspiration to combine the performance of long shot with the looks of Shad, coupled with your excitement over the design, means this is a concept you have to try. I am already figuring out which of my boats to donate so I can make room for the new one, assuming you pull it off. Having said that, and knowing that we are talking about generically light sof craft; now that i have been paddling a few years, if i do another build, I will want 1 Resistance/ ease of paddling 2 ease of rolling 3. Speed potential. 4 Stability. 5. Weight Happy Thanksgiving and thank you for your good works. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trakka Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Hi Jeff, I've been holding off building one of your designs for a while now as I feel the lighter experienced paddler ( I'am 6ft and weigh 168 lbs) would like a little less stability than the current designs. So to me, 1. Weight, the lighter the kayak the more I use it. 2. Resistance / ease of paddling, still feeling fresh after 4 hours of paddling (I then don't doze off in front of the tv that night) 3. Stability, The longer you paddle ( years of experience ) the less of a concern it is, you adapt and learn to balance intuitively. 4. Speed potential Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Well, the choices changed after I posted. Light weight would be number one. Stability would still be high on my list, unless it is a boat designed to roll. I do NOT want to do a wet exit from any boat, so I want her to be stable enough to keep upright, and definitely unwilling to dip the gunwale. Plus, as I understand these to be protected water boats, a little extra stability adds a little to the ease of paddling, though may detract a bit from resistance. The best rolling boats I ever rolled were built by me for me, using anthropometric measurements. That's one in my little picture thingy. They fit like nice boots, and are just enough boat to keep you mostly floating. Rolling is fun, but I have disc issues which will not allow me to lay back anymore, and make it pretty difficult to squeeze into my last boat and paddle around. Then ease of paddling. Then speed. I like the idea of a sheer stringer, chine stringer, and keel stringer, with one "bilge" stringer to help refine the shape a bit. That is a good compromise for your compromise boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted November 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Hi Jeff, I've been holding off building one of your designs for a while now as I feel the lighter experienced paddler ( I'am 6ft and weigh 168 lbs) would like a little less stability than the current designs. ...... Here is, or has been, my dilemma. The vast majority of my clients are not what I call experienced kayakers, no Advanced is a better word. Most are casual paddlers and stability is very important. If your coming from the world of consumer tupperware, my stability numbers in the 90's are lower and somewhat scarey to this group of paddlers. They are my core and I have had to cater to their needs so I can stay in business. Now i have a very good line of boats and I can start to look at something different. The boat I am working on is largely for me and my preferences. It will be a lower stability than my others but again, it is all a balancing act. One frustrating thing about stability is you get virtually nothing else in return. Resistance is lower but not by enough to really make any real difference. Other than maybe being easier to roll, there isn't a lot gain.It makes is hard to know where to aim the stability level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapecodJohn Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I want to build a fast, stable, comfortable kayak next I'm 6'2" 235 lbs and fit nicely in my fire fly. I barely fit my legs into my long shot (low coaming) Are stability and speed in conflict with each other? I was hoping for a miracle with this next new model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 It all depends on what the boat is for, in the long run. If this is to be a 5% boat, then make it a 5% boat. That is, if this is for the advanced guard, make it as advanced as YOU would like it to be, Kudzu. You can't go wrong if you make what you want. True, whatever you do, some will be unhappy, but it needs to be the kind of boat you want it to be. I believe you have proven at least a few people like the same kind of boats you do, so trust your own judgement and experience. Maybe this could be a new line of boats, called Kudzu Advanced, or Kudzu Adventure Line, somesuch nonsense. Elegant boats for sophisticated paddlers. This copy writes itself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted November 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Are stability and speed in conflict with each other? I was hoping for a miracle with this next new model That is a loaded questions because everything in hull design is a compromise, but once you get into a decent length boat, say 13+ foot of water line, yes. Least resistance (faster) would come from a perfectly round hull shape. It has the least wetted surface but it also has no stability. You could not keep it upright. Flatter bottoms have more stability but more surface. Somewhere in between is what we aim for. But stability is lost MUCH faster than resistance. I am not a marine architect and Long Shot and Firefly are about as good as I get one and maintain that level of stability. I have played with these off and on since the design was complete. I can cut down some on the resistance, but unless you are a hard core racer that needs every advantage all you are probably notice is less stability because of that goes away much faster than the resistance. So don't expect any miracles John. Physics are against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Length can add to speed potential, and stability, but who wants to paddle around a 25' kayak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwhip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 1. Stability 2. Resistance/ ease of paddling 3 Weight 4. Speed potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 1. resistance/ease to maintain cruising speed 2. weight 3 weight 4 stability 5. speed potential (I assume this means high end vs. sustainable) Looks are really important to me. But since that is so subjective and varied I don't see what I can offer for a useful opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted November 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Know anyone strong enough to get the speed potential out of 25' kayak? Lou Ferrigno is on the only one that comes to mind that might have the strength, then only when he turned green! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldpropfan Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Resistance/ease of paddling Weight Stability Speed potential Traditional appearance would be at the top of the list for me if it was an option, West Greenland single chine. Top speed not important vs. effort/ability to maintain cruising speed for longer time periods. While not an advanced paddler by any means I've quickly come to realise stability is something you grow into. When my son and I took his Shad out for it's first day on the water after about 5 minutes of padding and getting myself situated in the cockpit it felt alot more solid than the Necky Looksha and Chatham's I've taken my paddling classes in. Secondary stability felt higher in the Shad than either of the poly boats and I could lean the boat over further in a high brace without feeling like I was on the edge of going over. In weight there is no comparison, the Shad is half the weight of the poly boats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trakka Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I want to build a fast, stable, comfortable kayak next I'm 6'2" 235 lbs and fit nicely in my fire fly. I barely fit my legs into my long shot (low coaming) Are stability and speed in conflict with each other? I was hoping for a miracle with this next new model Hi Jeff, CapecodJohn 235lbs and I 168lbs are of quite different body builds so does the displacement and the weight of the paddler have to be taken into consideration with the resistance calculations. Looks are also important to me and I've often noticed how a boat that looks like a dream boat on paper can be quite disappointing when seen on the water and vice versa. I'am sure you will come up with another great kayak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Hi Jeff, CapecodJohn 235lbs and I 168lbs are of quite different body builds so does the displacement and the weight of the paddler have to be taken into consideration with the resistance calculations. Resistance can be calculated at any displacement. But in figuring stability you always use 250 lbs so I use that number for resistance just so that I am comparing apple to apples. With a lighter person the number will change, but I am just comparing one boat to another. so this works. Except on my kids boat. I had to use a different displacement on that one. 250 would almost sink it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makenmend Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I'm in that main category,casual paddler. Out rite speed Isn't important, good easily maintained speed is, most of my kayaking is river camping so capacity comes into the equation as well. For me ( my present boats are strip build ) but I want to do SOF It would be !. stability 2. weight 3. storage capacity 4. Speed MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azucha Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 As a novice, I'm doubt I have any credibility but for me the criteria rank 1. Ease and speed of construction Weight of the boat. 2. Stability 3 Resistance/ ease of paddling 4. Speed potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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