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CS-15 Mk-3


Chick Ludwig

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Hey ya'll. Any interest out there for a CS -15 Mk 3? I've been corresponding with Alan Stewart about having B and B design at least a partial kit for one. He posted some renderings on the "Core Sound 15 Kit" thread.

 

 http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/9048-core-sound-15-kit/page-2

 

What do you guys think about it?

 

Here are some thoughts I sent to Alan:

  1. Raise the sheer, and leave the cabin height as it is on the rendering. That would let it look less "chunky".

  2. Drop the berth height and eliminate the footwell in the cabin. Sit up with feet up cross-legged. Kinda like being in a tent. This would give headroom without raising the cabin any higher. I'm a solo sailor, so I don't need much room.

  3. Have a forward hatch instead of sliders and full length tunnel. 

  4. Outboard on transom and no oars. Use space in backrest/coamings for stowage of misc. small stuff with access into bins through the back rests / coamings instead of using them for oar stowage.

  5. Definitely keep the water ballast.

 

Here is more:

  I'll build the cabin interior "as I go along". That way I can mock it up to try things. Can we get at least 6 1/2 feet of length inside? Need to move the mizzen aft to do this? The berth top would be just high enough to give a large enough area to sleep on. There would be some space for stowage below through hatches.

  Probably won't want an aft deck or even a seat/locker across the back. More room to sit that way. Maybe I'll put in a removable seat there for when Debbie and the grandson go.

  Tabernacles on both masts for ease of going under bridges. Necessary on the lakes. I'll want a bimini over the cockpit, so the foot of the sail needs to clear it. Will you or G. provide sail plans with spar dimensions? As much as I like full battens (we have very light winds up here during the summer.), I need to be able to drop the rig into the boat as mentioned above, and I don't want to have to remove the sails to do it. I would think that the battens would cause a problem. (I know most of you wouldn't need this.)

 

Of course, these are my ideas for my boat. What would you want for yours?

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chick
  I would like them to do the same for a cs-17 where you had more of a cab to get out of weather on long trips do worrying about sleeping and all just have a place to get in out of rain and cold wind  My thing is going to be more river trips where you can tie up to bank or a dock some where.  My first trip with the one I am building will be from Columbus Ga. to the gulf

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Floyd, they do have a SC-17 Mk-3. 

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17mk3.htm

 

But it has a different hull than the one you have. If you want a cabin on the one you have, you will have to "make it up" yourself. Even if they sent you drawings of the Mk-3 version, or cut parts for it, they would not fit your boat. 

 

I think that a fold-up canvas cabin would be the way to go for you for the use you intend for the boat. Something like this one on a Bay River Skiff 15.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/image2.jpg

 

My intended use is to almost always do short single handed cruises overnight, so The permanent cabin is what i need. I think that you will probably day sail more, and have family with you, so an open boat wil give you more room. With a canvas enclosure, you can ave the best of both worlds.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Can't wait to get started! We're just waiting now for Graham and Alan to finish some other projects so they will have time to get "AROUN-TUIT". Maybe if some other of y'all would be interested...

 

I've decided to go ahead with the full battened sails. We have such light wind up here in the Summer that I need max. sail area. Alan assures me that the masts can both be lowered with the sails dropped and still remain on the masts. This will be necessary with the low bridges crossing the bigger lakes that I want to cruise on. I'm a bit concerned with how to drop the main while standing in the forward hatch. I'll have to reach forward and down into the fore deck well to reach the mast hold-down gizmo, and then be able to lower the mast aft without "walking back" as I drop it. I'll have to support the weight of the mast while holding it near the base. The full length "tunnel" rather than separate hatches would work better than this, but I don't want the tunnel. Or maybe all this can be done while standing on deck??? I dunno. 

 

Another thought on interior design is that I will only have a berth for one. It will be low enough for sitting headroom when sitting like in a tent. If you remember the rendering showing a sailor's head "sticking through" the cabin top, you'll understand why we want to drop the berth height. On the other side will be cabinets/bins/shelves, or whatever, for stowage. I suppose the berth will be on the opposite side from the centerboard.

 

What do y'all think? Any other ideas or suggestions?

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Chick,

 

I like the concept, but, I am curious why you would not just build a CS17.3? Taking 2 feet out of the boat comes from the middle. You would lose speed, storage, sleeping room, sitting headroom and I am sure something else! It wouldn't be cheaper to build, and lowering the sole might lose you length, and it would definitely lose you width. I think unless you have a tiny garage, the expense won't be much different and as a current owner of a Sea Pearl, only being able to sleep one gets old. Trust me, your grandson will grow! I'd bet you would also sacrifice resale value as well. 

 

Alan's modeling shows all the problems perfectly, to me anyway. most people know me to be pretty positive, and when I asked for opinions on my S11N, I didn't listen and made improvements I am proud of, so I hate to be a wet blanket. Are you sure this is a good idea?

  

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Steve. Thanks for the input. I'm a fan of smaller boats. I've owned and / or built several boats in this size range over the years.  I actually had a CS-17 that I bought partly completed and sold without doing anything on it.

 

Cost is not the object. I think that we are solving the space problems in the cabin. For the lakes that I'll mostly be sailing in, small size and light weight can be an advantage. And I don't sail when the weather is not warm and dry. All that I want the cabin for is to sleep in and store some stuff. My cruises are 2 or 3 days long. Actually, I would probably do better with an open boat like I recommended to McDermitt, but I just "want" a cabin. There are several small cruisers out there that are nowhere as good as I think that the CS-15 Mk-3 will be, such as the Com-Pac 16, Peep Hen 14, West Wight Potter 15, Montgomery 15, etc.

 

The grandson is not interested in spending more than a short time on board, and definitely not over night. Maybe he will later (he is 11 years old now), but I'll be on to other boats by then. At 68 myself and with some "balance" issues, I'll probably wind up in Stink-pots as I get older. I'm discussing one with Graham already. It's on the "back burner" until the CS is done. It will be a 15 1/2 foot power garvey (pram, jon boat?--- we don't quite know what to call it). And it will have a cabin.

 

Obviously, these are my own design objectives, and most folks would agree with you. I've always "marched to the beat of a different drummer". Or maybe I'm just a bit "odd".

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I didn't want to be the naysayer, I just wanted to make sure you thought it through. Those boats you listed all have compromises and because of that, become sort of specialized. At one time or another I considered all of them, but other than the Monty, they are all dogs to sail. And the Monty has that little shoe keel which is a deal breaker for me. the one thing they do all have is a single mast which opens the cockpit a bit, but you can't beat a cat ketch for flexibility.

 

Having owned many boats, it's interesting how experience funnels you towards a specific design. For me, it is the CS20.3. As soon as I saw the drawing, and then going to see Doug's build, I was hooked. Building the S11N and then watching all the forum entries, blogs, your build, Alan's videos, etc. have been fun. I have been assured that a kit will be together for me for a January start, and I will chronicle it all as I go. I'd rather build from scratch, but I like the design so much I'll take the advantages of a kit. I have been knocking all my other projects out of the way in anticipation. My goal is to work on it this winter, spend next summer sailing on my Sea Pearl, and then get back to it in the fall, for a launch in the spring of 2016!

 

Take Care,

Steve

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Steve, it all makes for interesting conversation. We're all different with different experiences, and can learn from each other.

 

By the way, I was friends with the designer (actually, he modified the Herreshoff design) of the Sea Pearl, and the builder, Bob Johnston. We had adjoining boat shops in Tarpon Springs. I also knew the Hutchins family that built the Com-Pac. I passed up the opportunity to build the glass parts for the 16 when they were first getting started, but worked for them later running the com-Pac 23 production line. You may also know my own design, the Sanibel 18. It was originally called the Skipper's Mate when I designed it for Southern Sails. And I also worked for Sovereign Yachts who built the sovereign 18.

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The Sanibel is a neat little boat, and a darn good performer. Nice job. You never know who you are corresponding with. That's why I am cautious with my words! Obviously had I known all that I'd have just kept my opinion too myself. But I've seen too many people want to "improve" a design and miss the mark by far. I really love my Sea Pearl, and hopefully won't ever sell it. We have quite a few low wind days here in NY that would be a bob and bake in anything but a long skinny boat. I've been thinking for years of buying a Sea Pearl hull and having a go at what I think I'd like, and never have the courage. Ultimately you can't have a long skinny boat and beam at the same time. I've done a lot of sail camping, and took a trip to Maine two summers ago that changed my thinking to wishing I had a cabin. Nothing fancy, just a place to sleep. I really considered building a Welsford Sweet Pea or a Bolger Chebbaco. Both are reasonably light, and presumably sail well, but I really love a cat ketch rig. 

 

As per your initial post. I only wonder about #3. I think that is a good Idea, but I don't have much experience with B&B's rigging. If you don't need to get to the mast to reef, than I think your idea is a good one. I like what Doug did with canvas, but I sure like the idea of a hard hatch. I was thinking of a forward hatch that hinged in the back so that propping it up at anchor it would act as an air scoop, while still be able to be dogged down in weather. The main hatch could be the typical slide forward hatch with boards. I also have in my mind a two sided "saloon" top that would halve the height of opening clearance, and propped straight up with a canvas cover could add headroom when anchored.

 

One thing about the 20 that concerned me: when I stepped into the cabin in Doug's boat, it's a big step. Even with a folding step it's a big step. I think that I would make a filler board with non-skid to go between the berths flush so the step wouldn't be as far, there would be less to trip over, and you could remove it at anchor, or put it in for a really big berth.   

 

I really think that this whole series is going to be popular.

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I'm glad you did comment. We've had a good conversation. Your opinions are all valid!

 

All reefing lines are led to the cabin top, as are snotter, down-haul, halyard and maybe topping lift.

 

I'm going with the main (companionway) hatch and the forward hatch as you mentioned. There are various ways to make a "tunnel" with sliding cover, snap-on cover, removable sections, or..., but i just don't like it. I agree with Herreshoff: "the only time you need standing headroom in a boat is if you sleep standing up."

 

And I agree that the CS Mk-3 series is going to be very popular.

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We have quite a few low wind days here in NY that would be a bob and bake in anything but a long skinny boat.

I've really enjoyed sailing in those conditions with a CS17 rigged with a mizzen staysail. I think my speed doubled every time I set that sail. Of course you could alway put one on a Sea Pearl, too...

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   Nope.  I used to live in North Carolina where there's plenty of skinny water and bob-and-bake, lightning or tropical depression in the summertime but now I'm in Western Australia (and deeper water).  My CS17 has been passed along to a more responsible boat owner and I'm cursed with a keel boat now (Arrr! But a nice, small one). :)

   I've taken a couple of week-long trips sailing a Sea Pearl in the Bahamas and I had an absolute blast, but I personally prefer the lighter CS17.  I'm completely biased, though, because I built the 17 and just rented the Sea Pearl.

   Just to keep from hijacking this thread I'll mention that I'm looking forward to seeing if Chick can badger one of the B and B crowd into providing him with the CS15mk3 - Anybody can design a wonderful 40 footer (okay, maybe not me) but let's see a 15 footer that is comfy, fun, fast, light, stable, cheap and bulletproof!  I have confidence that Chick and his accomplices will come up with something.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Hey y'all. We're getting closer to start up time! I had a nice conversation with Alan at B&B a couple of days ago. They should be done with the power cat by the end of January, and hopefully far enough on their other projects that they can "jump onto" the CS-15 Mk-3. And here is some great news---looks like it will be a stock kit! Alan thinks with the way we are "tweeking" the design, she'll be a very efficient little cruiser.

 

Scratch the cabin with a berth on one side with cabinets/lockers on the other. We'll have a simple, open layout with the entire cabin as a berth area with a shallow footwell, with a lift-up floorboard to make one big sleeping area. My boat will have tabernacles on both masts, but the stock boat will be like the other Mk-3s with a lift-out mizzen mast. Not sure where the w/c will "live" yet---maybe as a companionway step? The berth area won't be high enough for it to fit underneath at the forward end. Or maybe it will slide under the cockpit seat from inside the cabin? I dunno. The guys will work that out I'm sure. Anyway, it's fun thinking and dreaming about this stuff on a cold, rainy winter day...

 

Any more thoughts from you other guys out there? Maybe we can get Graham or Alan to post an up-dated rendering!!!??? How about it G. and A.?

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Chick,

It was interesting a few posts back to see your history. Thanks for sharing.

 

I have lived in Clearwater since 1970.  I just happened to be at the launch ramp when the first test sail of the ComPac 16 was completed.  It was a very blustery day.  The guys I talked to were very happy with the boat. The rest is history. 

 

I was sailing an O'Day Daysailor II in those days.  I got rid of the Daysailor primarily because every time I beached it the centerboard slot would get clogged with sand and I would have to go underwater to pull it down with a special tool I made.  This is another reason I love the CS boats with their offset centerboards and the small keel.

 

Before I built my 'Lively' I was sailing the Marples 10' Tri.  I was able to keep up with Sea Pearls in light air but as soon as it picked up they took off.  So when I was looking to build my next boat I was looking for a boat that would at least keep up with the Sea Pearl.  What I have found is that my CS 17 will get passed by Sea Pearls in very light air but as soon as it picks up 'Lively' will pass them planing all the way.  I am sure Graham is probably never passed by a Sea Pearl, he knows how to sail.  I can't say much about my sailing ability but I try and enjoy.

 

I have been very happy with my choice of the CS 17 instead of the Sea Pearl.

 

Many friends in our club sail Sea Pearls. 

 

Sorry for interrupting your post with my stuff.

 

dale

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No problem Dale. I was working for Buck Thomas, a friend of the Hutchins family, and later their salesman when they put the Compac 16 on the market. Buck was building the Southern Yacht 22 (21?) at that time. This boat won some MORC races. He closed his business when he went with Hutchins. His shop was on the water at Bayboro Harbor. I began building little fiberglass fishing boats and yacht dinghys that after he closed, down under the Kaykraft name. I also got to meet and talk with  with Clark Mills who designed the Compac 16 too. (Along with Optimist Pram, Windmill, Sun Cat and others.) He owned Clearwater Marine. If I remember right, they built the boat that gave Charlie Morgan his start as a designer---Paper Tiger. After this, Charlie started Morgan Yachts.

 

You'll find that most all boats have a "favorite" condition to sail in, but I believe that the Core Sound boats are best all around in many conditions. (No, Graham didn't pay me to say this!) Do you have the full-batten sails? They make a big difference in light air. So could a mizzen staysail, but that's too much work for me to fool with.

 

You are right about Graham's sailing ability. The first time I saw him sail was at the "Around Carrot Island" race in Beaufort, NC about 10-15 years ago at the annual Wooden Boat Show at the maritime museum. He was running away from the Sprits'l skiffs, lightning one design, and I don't remember what else. He one the race by a large margin. He was sailing one of hie Spindrift 10s. I remember thinking that he had to have "cat like" balance the way he worked that little boat. He knew what the wind was gonna do before it did! It was fun watching him weave in and out around moored boats to find the best wind while everyone else was sticking in the channel.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Graham!!! I'm thankfull for the cold weather if it gives you some time to work on the Mk-3!!! ( Other than that---wishin' summer would get here!)

Looks GREAT! I wanna go SAILING!

Lookin' forward to seeing the progress.

 

By-the-way, What is it that looks like a jib club boom on the fore deck? Or is it the main mast shown as lowered in it's tabernacle?

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I've put my thoughts together for Graham and sent them to him. Any ideas from you guys?

 

   1. First thought was to drop the berth height and eliminate the foot well in the cabin. Sit up with feet up cross-legged. Kinda like being in a tent. Now I’m thinking that it would be best to leave a shallow foot well with a sole that will raise to be a filler for sleeping. .  Can we get at least 6 1/2 feet of length inside? Need to move the mizzen aft to do this? 

   2. Is there a place that a w/c could live in the cabin? Maybe as a "step" coming down into the cabin from the companionway?

   3. Have a forward hatch instead of sliders and full length tunnel. Maybe a sliding style hatch so I could open it with the mast in the lowered position.

   4. On my boat, I’d want my 2.5 'zuki hung on the transom and no oars. Use space in backrest/coamings for stowage of misc. small stuff with access into bins through coamings instead  of using them for oar stowage. Then again, maybe it would be good to have the oars. There are lakes up here that allow non-powered boats for a low fee, but charge a LOT for motors.

    5. Cockpit needs to be large enough to "live in" and be able to day sail 2 or 3 people. (In our case, me, Debbie, and grandson Carter.)  Usually, though, I’ll be sailing alone. I would want 4-hatches for plenty of access into the cockpit seats.  At least one of them large enough to fit a cooler through.  It could be on the opposite side from the weighted centerboard for balance.  Access from inside the cabin to forward end of cockpit seats for sleeping bags, clothing, etc. Probably won't want an aft deck or even a seat/locker across the back. More room to sit that way. Maybe I'll put in a removable seat or removable stowage box there.

    5. Tabernacles on both masts for ease of going under bridges. Necessary on the lakes. I'll want a bimini over the cockpit behind the mizzen, so the foot of the sail needs to clear it. 

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