Boat building shops

[Farmboy]

Ok I've snuck in a few shop questions here and there, but will be breaking ground on it in September for sure and have a few more questions I would like your opinions on. Do not get your feelings hurt if I don't implement everything .

 

1. Is keeping the shop cool in the summer just as important as warm during winter?(location is NW Arkansas)

 

2. Is natural light important? won't be able to get or use very much natural light as will mostly work at night, but my current shop design has very little windows I could add more if it is a MAJOR plus.

 

3. Would/will lights on the walls shining towards the work area in addition to ceiling lights be good since I am in the planning phase still?

[PAR]

Any time you can control the shop environment, you'll appreciate it. Dust, comfort, cleaner paint and goo work, etc.

 

Natural light is always preferred over artificial, though too much is a pain in the butt for some things, such as fairing.

 

You want both overhead and low angle (walls) lighting, for different tasks, plus individual "task" lighting, such as around tools and equipment or to move around the shop as required. Overhead lighting (general lighting) should be on a separate switch, so you can use only the low angle lights (over the shoulder), for fairing. Smoothing and especially fairing operations require you be able to see the shadows of the low and high spots. Overhead lighting, particularly if too bright, will "wash out" these shadows and you can't see what you're doing.

 

I have a few different task lights on stands that can be moved around as needed. This is a real benefit if working at night. A good one for high illumination is those office, drop ceiling, 4 tube florescent boxes. Mounted on a stand about 6' - 7' high can toss a lot of light on a project. Of course this is a big unit, so a smaller one, say a clamp on style mounted on a camera tripod is a fine way, to do it on a smaller scale. I have one of these and I used an old vacuum clearer cord, so I had a 15' reach for power. Small shops should think portable and fold away stuff, rather than fixed.

[Ken_Potts]

Say yes to climate control - Keeping cool will be as important as keeping warm in Arkansas. Epoxy gets hard to work with when the ambient temperature gets uncomfortable. It won't cure when it's too cold and it cures too fast when it's too warm. If you can't manage climate control you can still build the boat but it will take longer because you'll have to wait for the right weather - And as I found out when building my boat on a screened porch, when the weather is good for epoxy it's also good for paddling and fishing, so that made the project take even longer.

[Howard]

FB:

 

I'm about 200 miles or so north of you in central MO. This past week it has been in the mid 90's, with humidity at those temps in the 40% to 50% range. You can hardly go outside without breaking a sweat.

 

I was in the shop last Fri. during those conditions, and it was noticeably cooler in the shop than outside.........but...........it is an older building that sits under a partial canopy of shade trees, so the sun doesn't get a full shot at the entire roof. Building has a thin layer of hard blue foam insulation on the walls and the foil backed stuff under the roof panels. No ceiling fans, but since it started life as a horse barn, the sliding doors on both ends open up. With a breeze blowing through, it is remarkably comfortable to be working in there, even at those temps. But close one door and it becomes unbearable within minutes. In addition to cooling, the breeze also ventilates, such that whatever fumes or odors being generated by the epoxy, etc, as well as any fine, microscopic dust from sanding, blows right on out the door. I had never considered this before, but having seen it work the way it does, doors on both ends helps. The doors also need to be wide enough, and tall enough to enable you to remove the boat when you are done. Think ship in a bottle. That would be embarrassing, especially if you built the shed first.

 

This building is not heated, and I don't anticipate adding heat, so cold weather will likely shut me down. If you want to be able to work on your project every day, even in winter, consider adding some type of supplemental heat. If a person was building a shed from scratch, and could orient it east and west, they might be able to include an open sided lean to on the south side.......one that could be enclosed with clear plastic sheathing tacked to the side posts, such that you could get some solar gain similar to that of a greenhouse. You might be shocked to realize how much heat something like that generates on a clear sunny day. On the other hand, I"m not sure how good it is for the wood and plywood used in these boat projects to constantly cycle through hot and cold, and the ensuing rapid expansion and contraction. Perhaps it is not enough to matter?

 

The building has three opaque fiberglass panels in the roof. On a sunny day, those let in enough light I can hardly notice if the three light bulbs in the rafters are one or not. On a cloudy day, I need the lights. Towards sunset, I have trouble seeing what I'm doing even with the lights on. That has gotten worse as the sheets of flat plywood have rotated vertical to resemble the sides of a boat, which shade the floors, sides and corners from direct light. I have not added the side lighting that PAR suggests, but I can see I am going to need to. As the days get shorter and the sun angle lower, this is only going to get worse.

 

Initially, I thought about using the gravel floor that was already in the building, as this is to be a temp use only. But I decided to go ahead and pour concrete, and it is a good thing I did, since this building also houses what shop tools I have for this project. While the floor has drains and the floor gently slopes to the drains, it is generally level, but more importantly, is stable. It is also easy to sweep and keep clean. With drills, sanding operations, planers, saws, chisels, etc, you will generate all manner of wood residue that if not cleaned up, will eventually build up, creating dusty dirty conditions, or attracting vermin of various forms. A hard floor keeps your work area dry and something you can clean.

 

My open work area in this building, not counting the box stalls or tack room, is 21' x 50'. For a 26' boat with an 8' beam, that leaves 4' of clear room on all sides, plus a comfortable work area beyond for storage to tools, materials and supplies. Leave yourself some room to operate.

 

Lastly, is this building also going to house power tools? What electric service do you have or have access to? Make sure the service panel is large enough to install as many circuits as you need and of the type you need.

[LennieG]

FB-

good luck with the project! Nothing like a fresh new dust free and organized shop at the beginning of a boat project. I found the shop gets smaller and smaller as the project moves on; not only does the boat get bigger but the lumber and tools accumulate. Good advice above and I would add:

-I like everything on wheels: the cradle, glue station, workbenches and where possible, tools.

- The floor. I started out very conscientious about the storage room floor. Covered it with plastic 6ml , then red construction paper. Bad idea as the paper got torn in time as did the plastic which resulted in collection of dust, tripping etc etc.  At one point I ripped it all out, washed the floor, coated it in several places with high traffic floor polish and it has resulted in a much cleaner shop, and very easy to clean up. Moving the boat a foot here or there because of the casters helps a lot. My space is 30x16 and I am building a core sound 17. I have two 4x8 benches on wheels. I have to move stuff constantly to get around but it is good good space.

- cool is nice, warm is nice. I am in S FL and it is HOT. However, I find that I can put in 5-6 hours a day 5-6 days a week when I don't have distractions. I am in a tin box with one door open with a couple big fans. My point is get what you can as far as comforts, but whatever you end up with, you will likely get so carried away with the wonderful project that you won't even notice. Last week a friend visited the shop and after awhile he said " you know it's really hot in here" I said "it is?" I did not feel it like he did because I was so involved with edging the seats correctly, smoothing the putty and planning next paint adventure.

what ever shop you end up with will be ok.

enjoy!

[Dnjost]

The lack of good building space has been the largest deterrent in my building process.  I need to move the boat outdoors for sanding, painting, etc.  This is limited by weather and temps.  Go for the best space you can get!  

[tom151]

1. Is keeping the shop cool in the summer just as important as warm during winter?(location is NW Arkansas)

 

PAR covered the lighting perfectly - by explaining the proper use for various light sources - just do what he says whenever he speaks.

 

My opinion on heating/cooling... A shop that's a little cool is a minor problem compared to a shop that's too warm.  Not because of your comfort, but because of the way the materials (the plywood and epoxy) behave.

 

You can help epoxy cure faster in a cool/cold shop by tenting the work after you've completed the epoxying then sticking a 75 watt  light bulb under the covers - saves LOTS of money in heating costs too. In winter I used to keep my slow hardener & resin under a cover with a 15 watt bulb as the incubator - so between tenting the job after gluing and keeping the resin in a tent - I never really had to bother with getting both fast and slow epoxies and had better control over the process as well.  

 

In a warm shop the most important thing (my opinion) is to measure the amount of epoxy needed for the job so that you don't have too much mixed - that way you know you can can just immediately spread out all of the epoxy on the glue/coat surface and not have too much epoxy - especially when fiberglassing ((I pretty much just use a 1:1 ratio - one ounce of mixed epoxy for each ounce of glass cloth)), getting it spread out immediately really slows it down since it doesn't cook itself off in the mixing container.

 

I am an advocate (a PITA about it actually) of doing coating and glassing in the flat, so the pre-measured epoxy approach really pays big dividends in terms of time saving doing the coating and in getting good fair surfaces.  Yes, I would cut back the cloth (after it's cured to the green stage) by an inch or so where ever very visible chine taping will be required and I'd be getting fussy with the fairing. 

 

I like keeping the plywood warmer than the ambient temp so that when coating/glassing the ply is cooling not warming during the epoxy cure period - at least then natural out gassing as the ply warms (and the resulting micro-bubbling takes place) is minimal.

[PAR]

  . . . PAR covered the lighting perfectly - by explaining the proper use for various light sources - just do what he says whenever he speaks . . .

 

Send beer . . . with each bottle wrapped in a $20 bill . . .

[Steve W]

Keep your epoxy about 70 degrees, otherwise it will crystalize and getting it back to a liquid form is messy! I have a basement shop and this happened on all 2:1 ratio epoxy. Otherwise you can't beat year round 60 degrees! I do have to humidify in winter and dehumidify in the summer!

 

Take Care,

Steve

[PAR]

Epoxy is pretty stable from the mid 30's (F) to well over 100, though reliable mixtures and cure times can be controlled with goo maintained at a reasonable range (60 - 80 F).

[Farmboy]

Alright guys, I guess I should have described my future shop a little bit. All good comments so far. The shop will have a concrete floor 24x38 with a parallel wood floor 14x38 divided by a wall with a 12' x 10' tall door in it. The wood floor part will house wood working shop(I was a cabinet maker) with dust collection coming up through the floor, 2 collection systems in a room directly under wood shop. The concrete part will have solar heated floor a few narrow but tall windows, and main door 16' x 12' tall and a walk-thru door on each end. Welders, work benches, grinder, etc will all be mobile in this main area. Lights switched in banks on walls and ceiling. Speaking of ceilings, the wood shop will have 10' & the main shop will be 14'. Also on a side note I was a carpenter for 15 years and have built 1 crude boat previously just to make sure it was within my skill set. Thanks for your opinions, I will try to post a few pictures as I build the shop. Gonna get the foundation done then see if I have $$ to finish all the way, the out side has to be really nice since it will be 10' from my house and I don't want the house to look like a silk purse on a sows ear if u know what I mean.

[Ken_Potts]

Cool! And when you're done come build a shop for me

[LennieG]

You'll definitely need a 60" wide screen media center, a washer and a dryer and a kiln dryer.

[Steve W]

"Epoxy is pretty stable from the mid 30's (F) to well over 100, though reliable mixtures and cure times can be controlled with goo maintained at a reasonable range (60 - 80 F)."

They say that, but who is they? I bought two gallons from B & B and it crystalized within a month in my shop. I'm not much of a chemist, but based on the wisdom of this board I warmed it (PITA cleaning crystalized epoxy out of hand pumps) and used it. Next time I bought it from Duckworks thinking bad things about B & B epoxy. Same thing happened. After it was 2 months old the resin bottles were white and solid. I did a little digging and found out I wasn't the only basement shop guy with problems. Now I keep it warm next to my dehumidifier in the summer and on top of my furnace in the winter. I am not sure the sweet spot, but below 60 it isn't. It takes awhile to crystalize, so your statement may be true, but not for storage. Ironically I have some 3.5 to 1 West system (too expensive) that I've had for 5 years that is fine.

BTW, sorry to hijack the thread, Farmboy, your shop sounds like it's going to be a beauty.

 

[PAR]

"They" are the chemical companies that make the base resins (Dow, Owens/Corning, etc.) and the formulators (West System, System Three, etc.) are quite aware of this issue, as well as those that understand the chemistry in the common formulations (like me). It's temperature, though humidity can play a role, not for the average home builder, mostly because their pumps, jugs and cans of resin, don't have enough volume or exchange rate of air in them, for humidity to play a big role in crystallization. Humidity (actually it's moisture content in the resin) can be a problem in big patches (like pumping large quantities out of 55 gallon drums), but the air exchange rate (moisture vapor) is considerably higher than the average boat builder's use rate. Most of the time it's temperature cycling that causes this, for the back yard user and it's also dependent, on the base resin and it's formulation (additives, purity, diluents, etc.). Lower viscosity resins (like RAKA) are less prone to crystallization then heavier bodied resins and the resin type plays a big role too. Knowing all this isn't as important as understanding it's not harmful, easily fixed and prevented if kept at a constant temperature, if your storage environment cycles widely (per Steve's recommendation).

 

Epoxy resins have the potential to crystallize around 120 (F), technically bisphenol A at 115, while F is about 20 - 25 degrees higher (these are the two most commonly used marine resins). But you need conditions and the a stray crystal seed (the purity thing) to get things rolling. Most resin suppliers recommend about 77 - 78 F storage, which isn't practical for most, though the formulators suggest you can live with 70 F without issue. I've found you can live with much cooler temperatures, so long as they remain constant and don't cycle up and down much, hence my recommendation of 60 - 80 F.

 

If you're interested in a more complete description with lots of unpronounceable words:

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_00cb/0901b803800cb76b.pdf

 

Again, it's not a big deal if the goo is kept as a reasonable and constant temperature level and easily fixed with a bath in hot (over 150 F) water or even just tossed in the microwave for a minute.

[Farmboy]

I plan having a small office type storage room that I can control the temp in for keeping epoxy, other paints, etc. Will 6' x 8' be big enough for this room?

[PAR]

A 6'x8' room is enough to use as a small paint booth or an epoxy mixing/storage area. A 3' square box with insulation will hold your resin and hardener. If you want to get high tech, use a thermostat to control the ambient temperature inside the box (fan, light bulb for heat, etc.) A plain old beer cooler will also do a fine job of this task too.

[Steve W]

Par,

 

Thank you for your explanation and technical data. When I encountered the problem a few years ago it really was an inconveniance. Having resin crystalize in the pumps really puts a damper on production. I've since changed over to using mustard bottles and a gram scale, so that when crystalization happens, I can quickly recover. Sorry to hijack the thread a bit.

 

I'm blessed to have a nice shop!

 

Take Care,

Steve

[PAR]

No need to apologize, I'm terrible about hijacking things too, besides, you're not the only one with these questions/issues, so . . .

 

Before I A/C'd the shop, I used a simply 48 quart beer cooler to store the "active" open containers of goo. In the cooler months, I'd use a 60 watt bulb in the cooler, which would keep the epoxy at about 70 degrees.

[Farmboy]

Mini-X rental lined up for next Friday. Prob haul a tractor over Thursday and scrape around and get foundation layed out & move everything's that needs moved.