dolfin47 Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Shoulder problems make hoisting my forward mast difficult so I am interested in purchasing (not building mysef) CF masts for my CS 17 # 307. Both masts are about 1 ft longer than specified on the plans and use sail track. I'm in Mass. so a northeast mfg. would be preferred for easy pick-up. I know that Phil G. at Hall Spars in Bristol, RI sailed the EC with CF spars, but they were designed for his special sail cloth (mylar?). I have regular dacron sail cloth--4oz, I think. Older threads seem to indicate a 40%+- mast weight savings. Has anyone had such masts made and if so, your thoughts, opinions & experiances on the subject woud be appreciated. Is anyone else interested in acquiring such masts for their CF 17? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnjost Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Have you considered a pvc tabernacle, or an over/under? I am considering this for my CS 17 (under construction in Ashland, MA). But, it would be awesome to have CF spars. I too am going with Dacron. I am considering the over/under style for my CS if I have difficulty. See Jim Michalak's site for an explanation. http://www.jimsboats.com/1jan11.htm#Mast Tabernacles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Ludwig Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 I always use tabernacles.Graham has a great design on his CS-20 Mk-2 that I built. I recommend it. It's MUCH cheaper that CF too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Garland Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hi Norm, On CS17 #351 La Perla, we did a pretty stiff carbon tube for the fat head North 3di sails we used for the EC. Those sails require a stiff mast. If we were doing carbon masts for the standard Dacron sails they would be significantly lighter than mine. We would match the stiffness of the aluminum tubes and resulting weight would be 8-9 lb plus the weight of the sail track and any hardware. Not a significant weight savings. Another solution that is simple is to use a "gin pole." We use one to step the masts on our Presto 30 cat ketch sharpie. It is two alum. tubes (1-1/4" dia.) lashed or bolted together at the top that has shrouds that support it upright near the mast step. You spread the legs for sideways support and fore and aft shrouds out of low stretch rope to support it for and aft and position the head of it over the mast tube. You have a 4:1 tackle set up from the top of the tubes and use that to hoist your mast up vertical and drop it into the mast hole. The gin pole tubes need to be long enough to lift the masts from near the balance point and clear the deck or thwart. They would probably be about 8-10 ft. long. Phil Garland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 A birdsmouth CS-17 main mast of sitka spruce, with a 2 5/8" heel and a 1 15/16" head (20% wall) will be about 9 pounds (naked). This will have about the same amount of stiffness as the composite 3 piece spar on the plans. If you reduce the wall thickness to 15% and increase the diameter to 2 3/4" (heel) and 2 1/16" at the head, the stick will be 8 pounds, with similar bending characteristics. Of course, you will have to add in tracks, halyard, snotter tackle and line, but we're not talking about much more weight. A sock luff saves the weight of the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 A sock luff saves the weight of the track and halyard but it adds the weight of the sail. Elsewhere on this forum I've seen a mast installation aid that used a ring of pvc to hold the base of the mast while the rest of the mast was walked up. That sort of thing would be retro-fittable (is that a word?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 The weight of the sail, because of a sock luff is a few ounces Ken, which is much less than a 5/8" sail track. The main mast track would weigh over 2 pounds, the sock luff material, maybe 6 ounces. I've seen the PVC ring thing as a guide for the stick, but I'm not impressed. The sock luff sail could still use a halyard and also can be reefed normally. The best way I found to hoist the main mast on the CS was to hold it horizontally, as I walked it up to the bow, then lowering the heel into the water, rotate it, until vertical. At this point, I lifted it straight up over the side and placed it on my foot, as I swung the vertical mast towards the mast tube. Once close to the tube, I lifted it to clear the above deck flange/lip and dropped it in. I found I could do this reliably both afloat and on the hard. Of course in any kind of wind, you'll want to be fairly sure footed on the foredeck with a vertical pole. I'm a big fan of tabernacles, though these are difficult to justify in a performance oriented boat, with the a mast in the eyes. This is about the worst place for additional weight, but maybe with the savings of a carbon spar, you can afford the tabernacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dunn Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I did the " PVC ring thing" on my CS 20 with 22' masts for quite a few years. It worked well for me but was ugly. They were really helpful when the wind was strong. I had to be careful taking the masts out not to pull past the PVC top. I used a 4" coupler. Recently I have been using 16' masts with two balanced lug sails. The 16' masts with no sail track are easy to step so I took off my PVC step helpers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Jones Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I may have the worst case scenario of a CS17 with solid Doug fir masts and laced sails. The main mast with sail and boom attached is 34 pounds, but most of the weight is at the bottom. Thanks everyone for the info on weights - I had no idea I was sailing in the stone age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I did the " PVC ring thing" on my CS 20 with 22' masts for quite a few years. It worked well for me but was ugly. They were really helpful when the wind was strong. I had to be careful taking the masts out not to pull past the PVC top. I used a 4" coupler. Recently I have been using 16' masts with two balanced lug sails. The 16' masts with no sail track are easy to step so I took off my PVC step helpers. I saw this setup in pics of the Texas 200 and am fascinated. Was that your boat? How does it sail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 "The weight of the sail, because of a sock luff is a few ounces Ken, which is much less than a 5/8" sail track. The main mast track would weigh over 2 pounds, the sock luff material, maybe 6 ounces. I've seen the PVC ring thing as a guide for the stick, but I'm not impressed. The sock luff sail could still use a halyard and also can be reefed normally." Oops! I think we may be talking about different things, Paul. I was thinking of the sails on Southbound which have a pocket that the mast fits into. That means the sail is stored rolled up on the mast since it can't be lowered. When the mast is stepped the sail is already on it as opposed to, say, Dawn Patrol - Her sails go on after the masts are stepped becase she's got sail tracks. It sounds like you're talking about a sail that can be bent on after the mast is stepped. The difference between your sock luff and the sails I remember is the halyard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Yes, we're talking about the same thing a sock luff, but the sock can be open at the top (a sleeve really), so a halyard can be used. The sleeve will permit the sail to come down to a reef or furl, so it stows on the boom, not rolled up against the mast, though this is also possible, I've never considered it a good way to furl a sail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Paul - I get it now. Norm - Is this boat already built (looks like the answer is yes)? The best solution will probably vary depending on whether you're retrofitting or building new. Even with CF masts you might have to contend with wind gusts (I don't know how careful you need to be with your shoulder). If the boat isn't decked yet a tabernacle might be good. Otherwise you might have already come up with the best solution in a lightweight mast. I'm pretty sure I remember Graham telling me that he checked out the option of buying CF masts for His original CS22 Southern Skimmer but decided to go ahead and make his own masts and was able to reduce the weight even further by using Birdsmouth construction for at least part of the length. Apologies to Graham if I'm remembering that incorrectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dunn Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 "I saw this setup in pics of the Texas 200 and am fascinated. Was that your boat? How does it sail?" I apologize for hijacking this topic a bit but it applies to the topic in some ways. Mattp, I sailed the T200 in 2008, 2011 and 2014. 2014 with the lug rig. 2008 and 2011 with the standard rig and blue and white sails. I lean toward reefing early and often so the lug rig had reefs in most of the time. In 2014 we did sail full sail the last 8 miles of the last day. The first day we were double reefed both sails all the way. The shorter masts are easy to step. With 2 yards and 2 booms there is more junk to deal with in the boat than the standard rig. For me, reefing was about the same effort for both the standard and lug rigs. The Core Sound 20 sails well with either rig. I made the change for two reasons. I wanted lighter, smaller masts to step and I just wanted to mess around with my boat. I sewed my own sails. First, two poly tarp sails. Then I sewed on Dacron sail and did the T200 with one Dacron sail and one poly tarp sail. I bought the Dacron material from Duckworks. Norm, In my opinion Aluminum masts with some sort of helpers similar to the PVC method is the easiest method to make stepping the masts easier. With that said I hope you go with some carbon fiber method and let us know how it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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