Ekapi Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I've been using this stuff for a while now as an arrow finish. It's flexible, crystal clear, rated for exterior use and very, very tough. It can be tinted and colored easily. I am thinking I might try this when I do my next build. It can be useful to have an option such as this if fumes from an oil based finish are a problem for builders. With shipping it runs about $30.00/quart...not bargain basement but for a small skin boat it won't break the bank either. http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/interior-top-coats/em9300-exterior-clear-polycarbonate-urethane.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I knew.... well know a fellow woodworker and SOF builder that used a Target water based poly over nylon, but I know nothing about it. Might be a good choice, the issue is always long term life after being stretched and flexed repeatedly. Most coatings start to fail from the flexing. Not being negative, always looking for something new. But if you like a translucent finish here is a proven product. Water clear and can be tinted too. Only draw back is the smells pretty bad. I have not heard it mentioned in a while on the boards but it is a tough finish and I am thinking I am going to break from tradition and do the new boat in this. Famowood's Dura-Tuff poly. http://store.creative-wholesale.com/Home/tabid/118/CategoryID/330/List/1/Level/1/ProductID/759/Default.aspx?SortField=Free3+DESC%2CProductName&gclid=CKKH0Y-B0r8CFYk-MgodwjwAYA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 One thing I can say is that this is more flexible than oil based finishes. Wood arrows will eventually crack a finish if it isn't flexible, and virtually all the oil based paints I've used will show some cracking over time. If it'll stand up to being repeatedly shot into targets at over 100 MPH I suspect it'll do well on the flexible skin of a boat. It is also extremely abrasion resistant...more so than any other oil urethane or waterborne polycrylic I've ever used. Try sanding this stuff....it'll wear out sandpaper like nobody's business, LOL. A major upside is that it is non flammable and NO fumes. It's safe to apply in your living room, if that is what you want to do. I won't be able to get going on any build until mid- Sept., but when I get the cloth I'll do a test panel before I commit to putting it on a boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 "Target EmTech 9300 is a non-yellowing water based polycarbonate urethane coating engineered to provide exceptional adhesion to wood and engineered wood-type substrates." This doesn't mean it won't stick to the synthetic materials, but it isn't designed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I doubt that ×most× of the finishes commonly used on skin boats are "designed" to be applied to synthetic fabric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I doubt that ×most× of the finishes commonly used on skin boats are "dedigned" to be applied to synthetic fabric. You are correct, but this doesn't say anything, for or against EM9300. The bottom line is we just don't know. You can call or e-mail the manufacturer. You can do some kind of testing. Or you can just paint a kayak and hope it works. But as of right now you are just guessing it will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I doubt that ×most× of the finishes commonly used on skin boats are "dedigned" to be applied to synthetic fabric. You are correct, but this doesn't say anything, for or against EM9300. The bottom line is we just don't know. You can call or e-mail the manufacturer. You can do some kind of testing. Or you can just paint a kayak and hope it works. But as of right now you are just guessing it will work. Ummm... but when I get the cloth I'll do a test panel before I commit to putting it on a boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Name one product that is made fabric on kayaks besides Coys Goop. There isn't any. Everything that is used had to be tested by some brave soul. If you need some scrap, I probably have some in the shop. If not I will soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Even Corey's Goop wasn't developed for skin boats....it is a concrete coating. I used it on one boat....it is indeed a very tough and durable finish but it is a BEAR to apply without sags and runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 The story is that Cory's father is a chemist and he developed the product Coy sales. It may be a modification of an existing product but my understanding is that it was developed spefical for kayaks. I have never used it and don't really like the shiney plastic look but it does have a good reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 The story is that Cory's father is a chemist and he developed the product Coy sales. It may be a modification of an existing product but my understanding is that it was developed spefical for kayaks. I have never used it and don't really like the shiney plastic look but it does have a good reputation. Could be, but this is what their advertisement says.... It was originally devised for concrete parking garage floors. It was developed for unvented areas to comply with safety standards. Yeah, it does have a heavy plastic look to it.. On my other boats I used Helmsman Spar Urethane. It worked pretty well, but it isn't that abrasion resistant, it'll scrape off pretty easily. It looks nice though, I colored it with raw earth pigments to make it look like a seal skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 For anyone reading this, Helmsman, based on my experience using it on paddles, is a poor choice! It has never lasted one season and I wouldn't recommend it on a boat. Your experience seems in line with what I would expect on a boat. Lots of folks use it but I was not impressed with what I have seen. If I wanted that amber color I would order a real marine varnish. Petitt, Epifanes, Z-Spar, etc. Not cheap nor will you probably find it locally but those are true Marine Varnishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 For anyone reading this, Helmsman, based on my experience using it on paddles, is a poor choice! It has never lasted one season and I wouldn't recommend it on a boat. Your experience seems in line with what I would expect on a boat. Lots of folks use it but I was not impressed with what I have seen. If I wanted that amber color I would order a real marine varnish. Petitt, Epifanes, Z-Spar, etc. Not cheap nor will you probably find it locally but those are true Marine Varnishes. At the time I was using ballistic nylon, and the upside is the the Helmsman has good adhesion to that material. I am going to be using polyester on the next boat however. Since I pigmented the varnish, the color wasn't an issue. I mean, it wasn't bad stuff,but it did wear and required regular touch up. Have you tried simply oiling your paddles? It provides a much better grip than a varnished surface, and if made from WRC, decay really isn't an issue. If they need a some touch up, a little dressing with sandpaper and a coat of oil and you are all set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwhip Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Ekapi, What rare earth pigment did you use on your boat? It looks awesome. I want to do the same thing on mine, but I heard some of the colors can trend toward pink. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Rich, I used burnt umber, red and yellow ochre. I put piles of each on a sheet of plywood, dipped my brush in the Helmsman, and then into the pigment and brushed it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobV Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Ekapi, I've tried the Target Coatings EM 9300, PPG's Break-Through, General Finishes 450, plus a couple other water based finishes. I had the best results with the General Finishes 450. After a couple hours in the water the finish softens and can be scraped off with a finger nail. The kayak with the Break-Through has grass embedded in the finish after placing it on some grass after two hours in the water. I had wanted to use a water based product to spray. I'm going be using Zar oil based poly on the next boat. I did a water soak test and after 5 days in the water the Zar did not soften. I'll apply the Zar with a foam brush. It's not recommened to spray the Zar because of bubbles, though I wouldn't spray it if it was. I did a test on some scrap material with a foam brush and was able to get a fairly smooth finish. I can always use some wet / dry 600 grit followed by a polishing compound. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Bob, well, there ya go. Good info and I'll save the EM9300 for my arrows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DURRETTD Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 I use Rustolium oil-based paint. It's cheap and it works. It's also available in BRIGHT colors - I paddle Choctawhatchee Bay (Northwest FL); we have lots of tourists consuming lots of alcohol while operating lots of jet skis, so I like to be highly visible while I'm on the water. Subdued colors look great, but they blend into the background too easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekapi Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 I use Rustolium oil-based paint. It's cheap and it works. It's also available in BRIGHT colors - I paddle Choctawhatchee Bay (Northwest FL); we have lots of tourists consuming lots of alcohol while operating lots of jet skis, so I like to be highly visible while I'm on the water. Subdued colors look great, but they blend into the background too easily. Yeah, that would be a concern in an area with lots of crazies in their powerboats. I paddle Tomales Bay frequently and there aren't alot of jet skiers...water is just too damn cold. Mostly fisherman, other kayakers and sailboats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 If you want to be seen, worry about your paddle, shirt and PFD colors. One of the best things I ahve seen was a black carbon fiber paddle that had bright yellow stipes on it. If I can find that photo I will post it. That stood out like you wouldn't belive. It was the first thing you saw, LONG before you saw the boat and it was yellow too. Kayaks are small and low the water and I think people put to much emphaisise on the boat colors while never thinking about their torso which is higher and is visable long before you see the kayak. While I am not going to paint my Greenland paddle yellow, you would be surprised at how visable it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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