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CS20 mk2 - I love water ballast!!!! Sail track friction and other questions.


sanmi

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I finally got to take out our CS20 MkII in home waters.  According to the local weather buoy the winds were 13 to 17 mph.  We were sailing south of the Elk River in the northern tip of the Chesapeake Bay which is notorious for short steep chop and confused seas.  60 degrees.  Four people on board.

 

GPS said: 

* moving time 4hr 15min

* Average speed 4.5 mph

* Max speed 9 mph

* Distance 19 miles

 

I love water ballast!!  We sailed on a broad reach for the first bit with no ballast.  Toward the end of the leg, the wind picked up to 17 and we started really moving.  When it was time to head back upwind, we filled the tanks (which I think took about 15 minutes).  With ballast in, we headed back close hauled with no reefs.   The boat was stable like a keel boat and amazingly dry.  No one sat on the rails.  Both my 16’ Michalak AF3 and my father’s Drascombe Longboat would have been far wetter.

 

There was plenty of room for everyone.  A few took advantage of the cabin to warm up.

 

Chick did a great job in building the boat, but just like musicians who cover other people’s songs, I’m going to be making a few changes to make it my own.  

* new double ended mainsheets and mizzen sheets per drawings

* replace hardware at end of sprit booms with 3/4” pins per drawings.  Love the loop in the clew!  

* lower the snotters on main and mizzen, 

* oarlocks on coaming

* 10’6” oars

* 4” sitting pad to put on top of the rowing seat to get the right rowing ergonomics

 

The only issue we had was it was sometimes difficult to get a good view of the sea ahead because of the large cabin top.  This was important as there are lots of partially submerged floating tree trunks in that part of the bay.  I may add a high seat to make this more comfortable.  

 

The tip of the centerboard is lead and quite heavy.  On the 11 hour drive home when I went to fetch the boat last October, the highway road bumps were enough to bang the centerboard into the top of the centerboard case and crack it.  Be sure to put a bumper inside the case if you plan on building one of these boards.

 

My wife and I are entered in the Watertribe North Carolina Challenge in September and we will be doing a training trip in St. Michaels, MD in a few weeks so I’ve got a long list of TODO items.

 

Question 1. Are 10-32 screws sufficient for the eye that fastens the snorter to the mast?  Has anyone ever had problems with that fitting popping out in bad weather? 

 

Question 2. Does anyone know whether using Loctite in the screw threads for Stainless screws in the aluminum mast is sufficient to prevent bi-metal corrosion?  I ordered some Tef-gel but would rather use something that keeps the screws tight.

 

Question 3. For a long time I’ve sailed a 16’ Michalak AF3 sharpie skiff with a 96 sq foot sail with sprit boom and sail laced onto the mast.  One nice thing about this rig is that when you let go of the halyard the sail flies down into the cockpit in seconds.  I’m a bit concerned about how much effort it takes to lower the sails - it takes me several minutes.  I have fully battened sails.  When I release the halyard, the sails stay up, even with no wind.  I have to pull them down with two hands to get them into the cockpit.  The friction is all in the sail track.  Is this normal?  

 

The sail track appears straight to me.  I tried lubricating the track with McLube Sailkote Dry Lubricant but it doesn’t seem to have made much difference.  Anyone have any ideas how to debug this problem?

 

Thanks,

 

Frank

Coatesville, PA

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Sounds like you had a wonderful sail. I will try to address some of your questions. I don't recall much of a history of snotter attachments pulling out of the mast, though there have been concerns. Wes was able to fish a nut all the way up, but he had special assistance. Some have used something called a rivnut, but they are pricey and not available in small quanities. I was able to make attachments to the mast where the tubes join allowing the threads to be cut into both tubes. I mounted two eyestaps about 120 degrees apart and attached them with a bridal. That puts much of the load in shear and distributes it across four screws. That may be overkill for a 17. I dipped the screws in boatlife caulk. I suspect  someone else will chime in. The sails should come down easier than you describe. Check for any burrs on the inner lip of the sailtrack run down it with a small file. I think snotter tension will make lowering the sail difficult.

I hope to be at Cedar Island in September perhaps will see you there.

good luck.    

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Hey sanmi, glad you like the boat. I'm missing her. Thinking of buying the partially completed CS-17 that another member has for sale. Here are a few comments and/or suggestions:

 

1. I always sat on a boat cushion which seems to raise my eye level just enough for better vision over the cabin top.

2. I've used threaded attachments to the mast on other boats with no problems, but I would install nuts if you can get them in there. 

3. Sorry about the sail track. Graham advised me to file the "corners" of the track, but i got in a hurry and forgot to do it until after installing the track. I went back with a file with the       track in place, but didn't do a very good job. Check with Graham on this, he fixed the problem on his boat and it worked out well. The battens do aggravate the problem.

4. I had planned on mounting a board under the trailer to support the centerboard. I think that will solve the "bouncing-on-the-trailer" problem.

 

Good luck in the Everglades Challenge! Be sure to take lots of pictures.

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Thanks guys!

 

@Chick - Thanks.  I'll take a look at the track corners.  They seem smooth to me but I'll take another look.  I'll also check with Graham.  I don't think I can get nuts 8' into the mast.  I think I may have had the centerboard a bit too loose on the highway which caused it to bounce even farther and gain velocity.  On my last trip I cinched it up tight and didn't have any problems with my repairs.  There was never any question in my mind that you were going to build a boat soon and I think a CS-17 is a good choice.

 

@Joe - Thanks.  I am getting some boatlife caulk too.  Maybe I will try that out.  I like the idea of straps 120 degrees apart.  Hope to see you in North Carolina.  We will be at Cedar Island on Sept 25. 

 

By the way, I decided to make my oars out of tulip poplar.  http://sail.fsanmiguel.com/2014/01/tulip-poplar-for-oars.html

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Frank

 

I thought the conventional centerboard transport wisdom was to locate a roller such that once up on the trailer you could slacken the CB uphaul and let the board rest on the trailer roller. This would limit stress on the uphaul during transport. How severe was the jolt that cracked the CB case?

 

The burr on the sail track is not that obvious just a little ridge on the back side. Not on the corners but all along the back edge. Secondary to the cutting or shaping of the track. 

 

Good luck with the oars. Look forward to seeing them. Maybe you will make me a poplar convert. I have tons of it in Virginia.

 

Joe

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I had the eye on my snorter attachment pull out during an accidental gybe during an Everglades Challenge (we were pushing the boat hard and we were tired and it was after midnight).  the jerking pressure just pulled the screws (secured with LocTite) right out of the mast.  I replaced thee eye with a boom bail with a ss threaded shaft that went right through the mast.  For the new MK III I plan to put eyes on both sides and attach a dynema loop.  The pull will be sheer on the screws, which should be stronger than the tension pull with the eye on the forward side of the mast.

 

I am interested ion any input on oars.  I hope to get Look Far on the water next week and try out several different oars before I sell the old 20 with its 10 foot oars.

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Frank,

 

In your original post you described how you sailed downwind then added water ballast and returned close hauled. You raved about the boats performance and attributed some of that performance to the water ballast, but it doesn't sound like you sailed close hauled in similar conditions without water ballast. You see I am a water ballast skeptic, I prefer my ballast on the rail and my bilges dry. However there are times especially when sailing solo that I would appreciate a little extra security. I have thought about adding some weight to my centerboard but that as you pointed out can cause problems.

 

If you have the opportunity I would love to hear reports of sailing in similar conditions with and without the water ballast.

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I fished nuts all the way up to the snotter:  a 12 foot long stiff batten, a wrench fixed to it about eight feet up, the nut held into the box end with a little putty, flashlights in both ends of the mast, steady hands, pure thoughts, and lots of patience.  I like the piece of mind knowing they're backed.  

 

If I had it to do over, though,  I'd use rivnuts.

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Joe,

 

Good catch - I assumed that the boat would have been heeling based on my experience in similar conditions with different boats.  On any other small boat I've sailed, I would have taken in at least one reef for that leg of the trip.  On my AF3 it would been have at least two maybe three.  But you are correct - it was an experiment with no control group!  Now I'm going to have to repeat the test all over again :-).  Julie and I are doing a trip near St. Michaels Md in a few weeks so I'll report back after that.  In my defense, we sailed in company with CS20 Dawn Patrol back at the 2013 B and B messabout and the water ballast seemed to keep her much more upright than without.

 

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I'm interested in the idea of a roller for resting the centerboard on.  I can't say whether there was a severe bump that broke the cap of the centerboard or just a lot of small bumps because it happened on an 11 hour trip and I don't remember any particular bumps.  The reason I think it broke as a result of bouncing is the location of the crack (picture looking forward):

 

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If I give the centerboard lanyard a good yank I can make it bounce up and hit the cap of the centerboard trunk right where the crack is.  My concern about leaving the centerboard on a roller on the trailer was that when I hit a road bump it will swing up and still bang the centerboard trunk cap.  I was thinking that keeping the centerboard close to the cap would reduce the banging force (lanyard elasticity, dynamic foces, etc).  I think that this is probably wrong or at least insignificant and the conventional wisdom is better.  Thanks!

 

Chick,

I looked again last night and found some burrs - so I think I'll be able to clean it up!

 

Doug,

I'm so glad you told me that story about the snotter.  I'll follow Joe and your lead and make a dyneema bail with eyes on both sides.  Your MK3 is looking great!  Can't wait to see her in person.  

 

My blog has comparisons of various woods for oars including weight, elasticity and bending strength.  Picture below shows tulip poplar oars in the process of shaping (that is my grandfather's crafstman jointer).  I'm using Graham's oar design for spoon blade oars.  I felt like Norm (from This Old House) using a jointer for shaping the looms when I could have done it with much simpler tools, but hey - use em if you got em.  

 

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Thanks Scott,

 

I have no experience with rivnuts but the youtube videos about them look good.  I can find 10-32 rivnuts on Amazon and ebay but they are the notchless type.  

 

Do you think there is a big difference between the notch type and the notchless type?

 

Thanks,

Frank

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  • 4 weeks later...

My wife an I took the boat out on a five day cruise to St. Michael's MD in the Chesapeake bay.  We sailed in a variety of conditions from small craft advisory days to light airs; open bay to protected river.  I still love water ballast and I have even more questions.

 

I did not perform a perfectly controlled experiment, but here's what I observed:

Wednesday night we sailed 16 miles upwind and back down with one reef and water ballast.  On the way in a squall hit us so we added another reef.  I had to pop the mainsheet in a puff once.

 

Saturday was windy.  We started out in the morning with two reefs and water ballast. According to the nearby weather buoy winds were gusting to 27 mph (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=44062).  Beating close hauled to windward for about two hours, we made five miles up to Kent Narrows and then floated downwind into the bay.  We had hand on the mainsheet but never had to pop the mainsheet.  It was a bit wet at times.  

 

In the open bay the wind moderated to 18-22mph so I shook out a reef on a close reach, still with water ballast.  On a boad reach with ballast we were making 7-8mph.  I put down the anderson bailer and in about 15 minutes all of the ballast water had been drained from the tank.  We started surfing and gained about 1 to 2 mph.  Max speed was 11mph with one reef tied in and still a very comfortable ride.

 

This was our third sail on the boat.  We are beginning to understand how she works and we really like what we've seen.  A few other observations and questions from this cruise.

* My new oars worked out very well (we didn't bring a motor).  I added some weights (zing shaft annodes) near the handles to give them a counter balance.

* I absolutely love the way the boat heaves-to.  Just sheet in the mizzen, free the main, release the tiller and she drifts gently downwind with her bow pointed 45 degrees - stable and quiet.

* We had a lot of rain on this cruise and it was great having a cabin but I found myself wishing for a cockpit tent.  Does anyone have any ideas for how to enclose the cockpit without unstepping the mizzen?

* We had a few days of light air and I'm considering getting another sail.  Should I get a spinnaker or staysail?  I think I can rig a bowsprit for an assymetric spinaker by using the substantial anchor pulpit that Chick built into the boat.  Any opinions? 

* I love the anchor pulpit.  My anchor can be muddy and I don't have to worry too much.

* I was very impressed to see her self-steering on a beam reach in fairly confused seas.  I found that I sometimes need to let the mizzen luff a bit in order to get her self-steering.   Is this expected?

 

At some point I will post an update with pictures and stories on my blog.  

 

Frank

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* I absolutely love the way the boat heaves-to.  Just sheet in the mizzen, free the main, release the tiller and she drifts gently downwind with her bow pointed 45 degrees - stable and quiet.

* We had a lot of rain on this cruise and it was great having a cabin but I found myself wishing for a cockpit tent.  Does anyone have any ideas for how to enclose the cockpit without unstepping the mizzen?

 

Graham says he is thinking of a dodger for his 17 MK 3.  I think it may be a great idea.  Just have to figure out sheeting and rowing, but it gives a dry entrance to the cabin where the aft wall slopes forward.  Once I have sailed some in mine, I'll see.  A big umbrella will suffice in the meantime.

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Yes.  I was thinking this too.  We rigged a simple tarp-dodger during the worst of the rain.  
 
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I think it would be really cool to rig up some sort of a full cockpit tent like those wayfarer dinghy cruisers.  The only problem is the mizzen mast.
 
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Or maybe something like this:
 
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Also forgot to mention that on the same day that we sailed close hauled double reefed with water ballast we did a few tacks close hauled later in the day without water ballast (and only one reef).  I think our speed may have been faster but the boat was also much more likely to bury the rail and round up.  I had to pop the main sheet during a couple of puffs and it required more concentration to sail.  Not a scientific test because the wind was different between the two runs.  

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* I absolutely love the way the boat heaves-to.  Just sheet in the mizzen, free the main, release the tiller and she drifts gently downwind with her bow pointed 45 degrees - stable and quiet.

 

 

 

 

I find my 17 heaves-to a lot better if you raise the rudder. The bow goes right into the eye of the wind and stays there. You do tend to drift backwards pretty quickly in strong winds, so not for wicked lee shores. 

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