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CS17 #375


Tgabe

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Par,

I am very impressed with your changes. I was referring to flexibility of use, i. e. seat removed access to motor, etc. not flex of hull. However, I appreciate you additional explanation of what you did do.

Questions:  Did you carry the seat face risers mimicing the sheer forward to its conclusion at fwd bulkhead?

Did you completely eliminate the aft bulkhead?

It would seem that with the aft seat removed the alum angle would have a tendency to cut your leg since it is very thin compared to a square wood piece?

It also seems that both the curved transom and the seat risers curving would be a lot harder to construct.

Also, I love your mizzen sheeting arraignment.  I have disliked Graham's arraignment since I launched 'Lively'.  I plan to change it when I bring 'Lively' into the garage for a re-fit this summer.  Do you like this arraignment?  Actually, I was going to go to the sheeting that goes along sprit and down mizzen mast but was not sure how well that works. Several folks like it but was wondering if there might be confusion between sheets if both were in front of you.  I do not like turning around to sheet mizzen.

 

dale

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Yes, the aft bulkhead was completely removed. You have to remember, this wouldn't have been my first picnic, so these types of changes are not uncommon. The aluminum angle didn't cut into legs, as far as I know. I did heavily radius the exposed corner and rolled over the outboard edge, to present as soft an impact as practical on the 1"x1/8" stock (visible in the top image, previous page).

 

Yes the seat risers mimic the sheer (roughly) from bulkhead to transom, offer more butt room aft and less leg room in the forward cockpit. I did cheat the leg room portion in this area, so the riser face is "complimentary" to the sheer, rather than an exact mimic. I also hung the stringer on the outside of the box, instead of the inside as the plans show (also visible in previous photos). I like the hand hold available and this is also where things will likely get screwed to the boxes, so easy to hit with a drill.

 

Building the curved seat risers just took some setup, as did the transom. The riser stringer was simply sprung in place, trimming a bit at a time until I was satisfied with the curve. This was temporarily tacked in place and a laser level used to drop "descenders" down to the bottom planks, so I knew where the bottom of the riser would need to live and to make a template. I "tabbed" the the riser face to the hull shell and the stringer, fixing it's location, so fitting a top was as simple as tracing the stringer on the plywood. Another feature of the outboard stringer is, you can cut a finger relief slot for the hatch lids and hide the locker scupper drain holes, under the lower edge of the stringer.

 

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post-304-0-17659800-1405922693_thumb.jpg

 

The transom was simply a matter of deciding on how much curve I wanted and springing an arc with a batten. A temporary mold was cut from a piece of 1x6 to this curve and screwed to the plywood, that would become the inner layer of the transom (it was veneered later). With the plywood forced to shape, it was held up against the boat on another temporary jig, that fixed the transom rake (also changed from the plans) and measurements taken to cut the side and bottom planks to fit the curve and new rake (required rudder head changes as well). There's a hefty and slightly stylized upper brace along the top of the transom, the mid brace, that lives under the seat a bigger then plan centerline brace, all holding the curve of the transom. The lose of the bulkhead is gained back by the wider seat boxes, which triangulate the transom nicely, to the hull sides and bottom planks. I'd say the seats are at least 4" wider (each) aft than the plans show, which increases flotation chamber volume too.

 

You'll also note the centerboard case is finished in the upper photo and has no board arm protruding up through a slot. The board was weighted (about 20 pounds) and the case made longer forward. The board has a groove cut into the edge of a curved forward portion, which a hoisting lanyard rides in. The lanyard exits through the king post at the front of the case, rounds a turning block on the bulkhead and terminates on a single block bail. This single block has a whip tackle attached, for a 2:1 purchase and terminates under the thwart, next to the mast. I did this so I could do this:

 

post-304-0-69336200-1405924776_thumb.jpg

 

The forward cockpit has cedar slates for the sole, but can be raised for sleeping. Without the centerboard arm, it's wide open. The same 1"x1/8" aluminum angle stock was used to hold up the slates, in the raised position. The aft cockpit has the same slate treatment, but they're fixed to the keel batten.

 

This sheeting arrangement was tossed shortly after installation, as it fouled easily. The current setup is like Tom Lathrop's, where the sheet comes down the sprit, to the mast, then to a centrally located block/cam cleat setup (also home made like the main) on the thwart. The whip tackle is well outboard of the original location on a couple of deck straps. Most skippers prefer to have the sheets in front of them, so this centerline, down the sprit trick is better IMO.

 

There are a lot of subtle and some not so much changes to this build. Note the side decks are the same width, their full length, once they straighten out from the forward sections, for example. The plans are much simpler to build than this version of the CS-17, but I've never been one to leave well enough alone.

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I am often asked about what I think about people customizing or modifying my designs. When it is done intelligently,like what PAR did I love it. If someone comes up with something clever we can all benefit. What bothers me is when builders change things without understanding why I specified something.

 

As an example, one CS17 builder decided to eliminate the cockpit sides and run the thwarts out to the sides of the boat, skiff fashion. The bottom was not stiff enough and the ply on the sides was starting to fail because the forces from the mizzen mast were trying to drive the mid thwart out through the sides. Not to mention that a self rescue from a capsize would be impossible.

 

One of the reasons for building your own boat is to have it like you like you want it. and you can customize it for all worth. Does it mean that you have to customize the boat? Absolutely not. If I was building a CS17 today for myself after all of the miles I have sailed in them I would build it exactly to plan. I would put in the oar stowage and stainless steel hollow back on the gunwales and keel. I would install the sheets as designed but pay the extra for cam cleats instead of the clam cleats.

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A vote for the stock sheeting layout....

 

I actually prefer the stock sheeting layout for the main and mizzen. The biggest advantage of the stock layout is that the sheets are always very close to the helmsman. Both sitting and hiking out both sheets are within arms reach without having to hang onto them all the time. If you drop the sheet you don't have to lean in to retrieve it it's right there next to your butt. Additionally, the mizzen isn't something that I adjust all the time maybe half as much as the main but when i do I don't recall ever needing to turn my body, i just lift my aft hand to the coaming and there it is. I push the mizzen sheet forward with my aft hand when bringing it in rather than turning my body to "pull" it and I give the end to my forward hand. Then I can take in more if I want or follow the line back to re-cleat it. This is a very natural motion. Easing the mizzen is a no brainer just un-cleat, let it slip, re-cleat. 

 

Many sailors go to great lengths and sometimes engineer convoluted rigging solutions to achieve double ended or 2 sided control lines and sheets to increase control line and sheet accessibility. We have it so easy with the stock layout. To my eye sending the mizzen sheet along the sprit and down the mast to a single sheet point is an overly complicated way of making the sheet LESS accessible not to mention making it a little more complicated to adjust the mizzen snotter. I also find the stock sheeting layout to be exceptionally good in very light airs with very low friction to ease the sheets which I attribute to the simple 2 sided sheet layout. 

 

One of the most fun and challenging things about sailing is playing around and coming up with better rigging solutions and there is always another way to do it. 

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I changed the mizzen sheeting from the stock layout to run forward to the mast because of two perceived deficiencies on my particular boat:

1.  The clam cleats I installed never really gripped the sheet well so there were a number of occasions when the mizzen sheet came unintentionally uncleated and I had to react quickly to grab the sheet before it was out of reach.  Actually, the one time I rolled the boat I did so because I was frantically trying to grab the mizzen sheet as it snaked through the fairlead behind me.  I didn't get there in time and then I was left steering with the wrong hand while facing backwards as the boat turned downwind due to the newly luffing mizzen.  Due to my suddenly awkward position in the boat I instantly pushed the tiller in exactly the wrong direction and we rolled like a P-51 :)  It wasn't the fault of the rigging, it was my slow and confused reaction that initiated my swim.

2.  I always run out of sheet when it's double-ended.  It's not really a problem, it's just something to keep an eye on.

Given those two things I decided to run a single-ended sheet to the base of the mizzen mast.  It didn't change the mizzen snotter at all and I thought it was overall a little less complicated in operation than the double-ended sheet that used to live behind me.  I agree that the sheeting point was farther away in that position but I didn't even have a tiller extension (too confusing for this old man) so the sheeting point was still accessible.

I really like the stock layout and I also like the layout I eventually settled on but the stock layout was friendlier to reefing in the middle step.  I really wouldn't have changed things if my clam cleats had gripped well.  I think it's all apples and oranges.  It's fun to play around and see how different setups work.

If in doubt I say go with Graham's setup - He's sailed enough to know what works and that's why we pay him for his plans and kits.

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Alan and Ken,

Thanks for your comments. They are thought provoking.

 

Alan, I like your explanation of how you use the stock configuration.  I usually sail by myself so am sitting on the side deck.  I very much like the mainsheet configuration for the reasons you have given.

I will have to practice your idea of adjusting the mizzen sheet by feel instead of turning to look at it. 

 

I have also had the sheet pop out and cause problems like Ken has mentioned so that may be affecting my thinking. However, so far I have not capsized her but have come close a few times.

dale

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I've never been a "jam cleat" fan on highly loaded stuff, such as a sheet. Though the sheet loads on a CS aren't very high, the darn things just like to slip, when you'd least exspect.

 

To further Graham's thought's, the CS I built wasn't my first go 'round, in fact, I'm not sure of how many boats I've built or been part of building. I ran out of fingers and toes long ago trying. For example, I knew removal (wholesale) of the aft bulkhead would dramatically weaken the boat's butt, but I also knew I could put a lot of this back, with a curved transom and some well placed braces. To further this concern the wider seat boxes aft would have better triangulated purchase, on the transom and it's associated framing. Once I pictured this, the engineer in me had no issues with the modification. Most home builders don't have the luxuries I enjoy, though I have to admit some pretty clever "on the fly" engineering has been shown in this threads.

 

Major modifications should be discussed with the designer (whomever this might be) and if they're not available, places like this can help sort out the "usual suspects" for solutions. My home made standup, swiveling, blocks with cam cleat and fairlead combo is an example. Have you priced one of these from Harkin? I used the other half's cutting board, for the HDPE disks, some straps of flat stock and a little drill press time. I bent them in a vice with a deadblow hammer. A lot cheaper, which is how most sailors are - cheap.

 

As to the sheets, the current rating as I've kept it is about 50/50 for the stock, over the down to the thwart setup. I like the thwart setup as it's neater and doesn't foul things. It also keeps the sheets on the same line of sight, which also happens to be the direction you're looking underway.

 

Dale, there are other ways to hang the removable seat and forward cockpit grates. You could still use the angle stock, but on a hinge, so they'll fold out of site when not in use. A rabbit in the seat boxes to accept the removable seat would work, but maybe not for the gratings, possibly some retractable pins or barrel latches might. You can skin this cat many ways, most would be elegant, if built to your usual standard. I used the angle stock as a simple, no moving parts solution that was easy to install and maintain. It's also easy to machine, cut and shape, so a natural choice for me. Maybe those tongue and slot setups they use on settee tables in the common trailer sailors. They're strong (stainless), have a very small foot print and impact on the area, no moving parts to break or wear out, they can't rattle unless sloppily fit and diminutive in size.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I'm trying to figure out the sequence of the next steps. I have the hull wired together, forward bulkhead, temp center frame, and transom also wired in. Is the the correct sequence for the next steps?

1) intall inwales (I can't find anything in the instructions about this)

2) tape and fillet inside seams of chine

3) install keel batten

Do I tape and fillet the centerline prior to installing keel batten?

-Gabe

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Gabe-

i am not near my instruction pages but think I remember them taking me thru these stages. I recall the last statement of instructions were that at this point follow the plans. I installed inwales, then tabbed the Chines etc. as there may be need for adjusting wires after inwales are in. As I recall on center line you tab it, then remove wires then install keel batten. I can send you my sequence and hours if you provide me your email.

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  • 8 months later...

Can someone clarify the aft seat arrangement?  I am not using the aft deck.  Can't seem to find this in the plans.  I assume the seats would extend all the way back to the stern, but do I include additional partial bulkheads under the side seats for support?  And what about the stern seat - closed in or open underneath?

Should it be like the bottom picture in post #42 on this thread?  Thanks.

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As far as I know, the "aft seat arrangement" isn't documented in the plans, but was one of the many modifications I made, during this build.  Simplt put, the side seat boxes where extended to go all the way to the transom, getting tabbed in, just like anything else. The area between the seat boxes had a shelf like seat instealled, which rested on two lengths of aluminum angle stock, mounted to each seat box stringer (which was externally mounted, not internally as the plans show). The seat was removable and the transom had a signifigant athwart brace about half way down it's height, which the aft portion of the seat rested on. You'll also note the seat box faces aren't straight, but curved symphedic to the sheer, which provided a wider seat aft, hence more chamber volume, once sealed up.

 

I did place an extra seat box partition inside the boxes to accomidate the additional length, but the area between the boxes was wide open (no bulkhead). I knew I could get away with this for a few reasons, the first being the additional stiffness the curved (rather then straight) transom would provide, the slightly wider boxes, additionally the horozontal brace and lastly the extra seat box partitions. In fact, the area between the last seat box partiton and the transom became two floatation chambers, with 6" deck plates on the seat box sides for ventalation and access. This provided about 190 pounds of floatation on each side, up against the hull sides, just where it needs to be. The forward end of the seat boxes also had these type of chambers for an additional 220 pounds on each side. This ment, if capsized and lieing on her side, she'd float high, with over 400 pounds of built in floatation chambers (per side), not counting any trapped air under the foredeck and seat box storage areas.

 

Use some cardboard and work out what you think will do. It'll save some cussing later and if you're fairly accurate with the board, you can use it as templates on the plywood.

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I have about 2 dozen empty wine bladders from boxed wine that serve nicely in the available spaces.  The spigot is controlled with a plastic valve cap and plastic spring.  I inflated a few in September to see how they would hold up over the winter,  all were fully inflated several months later (April) after a horribly cold and unpredicatable NE US winter.  I will add these to the forward side compartments and through a few in the bow and stern when there is space.  I could probably duct tape a few together and use them as a dinghy.  The small box size is fits easily through the 6" plastic access ports.  

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