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Fishman38

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Two points

 

First, I ALWAYS assume there is blush present, and ALWAYS wash the surface before trying to paint, or apply another coat of epoxy if it's been a while. Not of course if I'm hot coating. Just saves grief down the line.

 

Second, yes, I've used the Acrylic Latexes on boat interiors for some 20 years now.. Started with Sherwin Williams Incredi Coat, but they've changed it to a different name now. I had a boat I sold recently that I piainted in 1994 and the interior, other than the usual dings and nicks, is in great shape.

 

Other major brands have about the same thing though.

 

Understand I'm NOT referring to EXTERIORS. Just inside cabin boats.

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After much study and turmoil, reading, researching , listening to you guys and diving deep into the LPU trade offs and processes, I have decided to go with the lowly Acrylic Latex on my boat. Yes, including the hull. I do hear you and do understand the downsides, and I do APPRECIATE YOUR ADVICE DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT MAY APPEAR THAT I AM IGNORING IT, but the upsides for me are too compelling at this time with the acrylic. Ihave respiratory issues, a shortage of extra hands on board, a dirty dusty shop and I am stalled in the build. This decision quite honestly thrills me and will certainly get me off my butt and get this boat done. I have read about and seen several latex painted boats and they all worked out fine for their owners given that they were trailer sailers. The nicks and scratches will happen but also the fix and repair on those is easy. Dales "lively" looked great despite some wear last time I saw it. Valspar Duramax has been spoken of highly on other forums, and is Rated #1 on Consumer Reports.

Question:

From having painted the test areas it became clear that blemishes, inconsistencies, fish eyes show up after a coat of primer in ways that you now know what you have. After cleaning, sanding, cleaning, fairing, sanding cleaning etc. and putting on first coat or first coat of primer, can one then add epoxy/ micro balloons etc and repeat process without removing the paint? So will epoxy go over latex acrylic , and then accept more latex acrylic?

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Isn't it amazing how many of those little tiny places show up, even after all the sanding?

 

For the little minor scratches, pin holes, etc, I use 3M Marine putty, applied with a squeegee. It comes in red and or white. I use the white under light colors and the red under dark. Comes in a large tube, like toothpaste and hardens quickly. The white is part #05113-05962. Goes right on over the primer

 

Normally you can sand within an hour.

 

This is NOT for major oops's. Just the pinholes, etc.

 

 

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Lenny,

My 'Lively' was painted with 2 part System 3 LPU in 2007 and she still looks not too bad.  You have seen her. Remember this was done in just about the same temps and humidity as you have.  I followed their instructions and used their primer.

 

dale

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is my contribution for the day, a factoid you didn't ask about but I am giving you anyway, free of charge. :) I have seen the term FRP a lot lately in reference to paint types, choices and substrates, and had a sense that it refered to fiberglass but didn't understand the acronym and figured I would find out for sure. This is something I am sure most of you already know, but here goes:

"Fibre-reinforced plastic (FRP) (also fibre-reinforced polymer) is a composite material made of a polymer matrix reinforced with fibres. The fibres are usually glass, carbon, basalt or aramid, although other fibres such as paper or wood or asbestos have been sometimes used. The polymer is usually an epoxy, vinylester or polyester thermosetting plastic, and phenol formaldehyde resins are still in use. FRPs are commonly used in the aerospace, automotive, marine, construction industries and ballistic armor."

In other words, fiberglass and epoxy!

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is a timely spot for some pics.

 

I've been working on my sadly neglected 18 foot tri, getting her ready for the upcoming Texas 200. CLC John's Sharpie with B and B designed Amas.

 

She's painted with Ace Porch and Deck- a single part poly and this is what she looked like after close to two years sitting totally unprotected in the Texas sun. You don't want to see what the varnished masts looked like :o

 

The dark line across the hull is where the tie down line was lying. That's the original color

post-31-0-27085400-1401238148_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

The second pic shows the paint with just a quick wet down with mineral spirits. The paint had chalked a good bit, buit if I had not had to repair some scrapes, I could easily have waxed the hulls and been good to go.

 

post-31-0-13207700-1401238258_thumb.jpg

 

Last pic is the boat assembled, pulled onto a oyster shell beach during a previous 200. The bow up on the beach is why repairs were needed- a layer or two of glass is no match for several dozen encounters with oyster shells. That's Graham Byrnes in the red shirt by the way..And Marissa, of the Marissa boat name, in the red shorts on the end.

 

post-31-0-48177700-1401238578_thumb.jpg

 

Just finished repainting with the same stuff. THIS time i'll keep her under cover. The 200 is in less than two weeks :)

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I learned some lessons which may help other novices. I say I learned some lessons, assuming my early conclusions are correct that is ......:)

I painted my first coat of primer yesterday, which was Interlux Pre-Kote, a build and hide primer undercoat which is being used before the enamel I have chosen for top coats (Interlux premium yacht enamel). Yes decided against the latex!

I got to the boat today after 22 hours (87 degree temps) ready to clean, sand and clean and paint second coat. I tested an area I had painted a little heavy for hardness with my thumb nail and it was not hard at all. I scratched and test sanded various areas of the boat and while the thinner areas were lesser problematic, the boat was clearly not ready for another coat. The label indicated something like 8 or10 hours drying time at 75 degrees for overcoating

I spoke to the Interlux technical person and here are my conclusions:

- I painted some areas heavy trying to cover low spots and unfilled weave. Mistake. Lesson: Paint thin coats, which I knew and had read frankly but forgot in the heat of the battle.

- I did not use thinner. The directions did not say to use thinner. All that it said was "thinner: up to 10%". Lesson: use thinner.

I sanded the entire boat by hand as recommended by technical person. Apparently some component of the paint ( the pigment ?) in this situation seals in the solvent and does not allow it to escape or dry. By sanding it opens up the seal. I am to check it in a couple days. I went through about 20 strips ( 5 sheets) of 120 grit paper. It kept getting caked up.

There is a chance this is due to Amine Blush but I doubt it. I am using a non blushing epoxy and I was careful to follow the sequence.....clean, sand, clean etc.

Hopefully in a day or two I will have a hard surface, and if so I will remember those two lessons for a long time.post-3404-0-66057700-1401315499_thumb.jpg

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I just went through roughly the same experience rolling on Blue Water Mega Gloss Gold Primer.  Didn't thin it but tried to roll it thin.  Did not have much paper clogging like you describe but it did seem softer and sanded easier than I expected.  One pass with 150 grit removed a lot of the material and a light second pass with 220 removed a lot more, too much in my opinion, but the result was an extremely smooth surface for the next coat.  I'm going to thin it a little and spray the next coat and hope for the best.

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Just my two cents worth, I have done the the one part paints of different brands. Rustoleum marine, interlux, epifanes, kirbys and they just don't hold up and stain easily. Why not use a epoxy primer then a good two part poly and forget it for ten years or longer? There is just too much work that goes into finishing a boat to try and save money here and not use a two part. Never again will I use a single part paint on anything but maybe some interior stuff.

Learned the hard way, even after Graham warned me, but I thought I knew better!!

 

Never had any problems with the one part looking good at first or with adhesion, I'm sure they would protect the the boats epoxy, they just won't look good very long if you use the boat a lot.

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Lennie, if amine blush was present, the paint would peel off in large sheets or have sizable areas where it just isn't stuck well. Amine blush is a wax like film, which as you'd imagine doesn't let paint stick very good.

 

I've been using epoxy primer for so long, I can't remember what the single paints are like any more. The bond coat has to be solid, for obvious reasons, so I use the good stuff. It takes so much effort, that I don't want to go back and redo something. I'm not a fan of paints that require special thinners, reducers, wetting and drying agents, etc. In most cases I find the MDS and find out what they're using for these products and just use the straight stuff (spirits, Japan drier, etc.). Interlux Pre-Kote recommends a surface prep (YMA60 1V) over epoxy. This tells me it might have some curing issues on epoxy. I've found some alkyds do have this difficulty and it's a crap shoot as to which will. This sounds like what you're describing.

 

Simply put, if it's not sandable cured in 24 hours, it probably will not cure completely. As to why, well there's a few guesses and mine is, it's one of those alkyds that just reacts with epoxy. Considering the Interlux lab guys know this, you'd think they would have addressed it, which is possable why they offer both a cleaner and surface prep, specifically for epoxy surfaces. It does force you to buy more stuff with their name on it, but a look at the MDS might offer some clues as to what they're providing. For example, you can thin Interlux Pre-Kote with MEK. They have a few other ingredients in their thinner, but these are to control VOC compliance (my assumption). Personally, I don't recommend the two pack paints for the back yard builder, just too much to go wrong, too much to buy and difficulty in application, but they do perform well.

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Sleepless night. Damn. I am embarrassed to say that I changed the hardener pump last week because I noticed it was providing what seemed to be a narrow squirt lately. The new pump gives a much more robust shot. holy moly. It crept up slowly but definitely. So, may have been a mix ratio problem as Paul suggests a curing issue. ( By the way the Interlux guy did lean on me for not using his cleaner but I figured it was another expensive product for them to add on like their $50 gallon of thinner, which I did buy.)

Much of my epoxy and glass work involved measuring without pumps, but enough of it involved what I now assume were faulty pumps.

The area affected is the epoxy coat under the glass ( I applied the glass on a wet surface), and some of the overcoats.

Suggestions? Do I need to strip down to bare wood and start over? How? Thinner to remove paint and then sand it off?

Are we having fun yet?

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Too much resin = Brittle. (Aargh!)

Too much hardener = Goo. (Fark!)

Despite the best of intentions most of us have mixed a bad batch.  Pumps can be cleaned with vinegar and there are other ways to measure accurately (see the recent epoxy thread for way too much information on that).

The good news is most everything is fixable, however heartbreaking.  I still remember the gunshot sound of my starboard bow breaking when I unfolded the boat... :)  (Aaaaaak!!!)

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You've learned why I don't use pumps any more, damn. I do recommend them, as the back yard builder just isn't going to go through enough goo, to experience a worn out pump spring, though they do accumulate residue (especially hardeners) inside, which can alter the ratio. Clean the pumps.

 

As to uncured epoxy - well you know what I'm going to say and yeah, it sucks, but the alternative is a soft area (s) in all the locations the questionable batch was applied (it's alright to curse loudly). Epoxy can be off by a good bit and still cure hard, maybe as much as 10%. I've "eyeballed" 2:1 mixes with little difficulty, but I don't suggest this as a  routine. Graduated cups or a marked measuring device beside the mixing cup is good enough and eliminates the bother of those damn pumps, which always seem to drip too.

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Got to the boat today with intention of removing paint. It had hardened considerably. Went after it with fairly hard acid brush and thinner and the paint wouldn't budge. Went after it with acetone and brush- same. Mmmmm..... Called Interlux again and was told it was very typical for this paint to take several days to harden if painted heavy. Decided to sand boat to see how that would go and with RO Sander got it sanded and it did not get caked up too much at all. Plan to test a couple areas with the finish enamel to see what happens. Will definitely replace the keel which definitely had the bad epoxy mix and had a bend in it anyway, and sand down that area and re tape at a minimum but may avoid entire re-do. If enamel looks good will sand down entire boat again and add another primer coat, nice and thin.post-3404-0-92480500-1401390596_thumb.jpgpost-3404-0-72353000-1401390645_thumb.jpg

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Cool deal Lennie, maybe you've gotten lucky (you're do). Do a "peel test" on the primer. Using a razor blade, make several parallel 2" - 3" scratches, say about 1/8" - 1/4" apart. Also make the same scratches, perpendicular to the first set. Next, apply the stickiest tape (duct tape is good) you can find to the scratched area. Burnish the tape good, so it's well stuck. The test is a subjective one, but will give you an idea of how well the paint's adhesion is. Grab a length of this tape and yank it off the surface hard and fast, at about a 90 degree angle. Good adhesion will have 98%+ of the paint unmolested, though some hunks around the scratches might stick to the tape, it should be very little. If the adhesion is poor, lots of paint will come off, with the tape, suggesting you might want to remove it (wholesale). As to where to draw the line as to is it stuck enough, well I mentioned the subjective part, right. Usually, it's obvious, with paint peeling easily or not much releasing at all.

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