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Fishman38

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Seems like a thread on this subject would be useful.  I'll start it off by posing two questions:

 

1) I see recommendations in paint specifications on thickness of the coat(s).  How does one measure the thickness of a coat of paint?

 

2) Would anyone care to offer opinions on brands and types of boat paints i.e. Epithane vs Awlgrip, single component vs two component, etc?

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This is a huge subject. I recommend single part polyurethanes for the best bang for the buck. LPU's and other two part paints work well, but can be troublesome for the novice to apply. I do recommend epoxy primer. There are several brands and all seem to work well. There are guide to measure film thickness, but you don't need one. Assume you'll apply 3 to 5 mils per coat (depends on paint) and plan accordingly. I prefer multiple coats (several) applied quite thin. You have more control over imperfections, film thickness, etc. Most would like to apply just 2 coats, but this can cause issues, if you're looking for a car like or mirror finish. Thinner coats can be knocked down, between each successive coat, making for an exceptionally smooth finish. This is more like buffing than sanding and a stipple free finish is possible. As to brands, well this is as wide open as the primer choices, but most will perform better then you'd expect, assuming you put most of your effort into the prep, which is the name of the game in paint jobs.

 

It boils down to budget and willingness. Are you willing to put in the effort to get a really smooth finish and do you have the budget to get the $300 a gallon (plus activator and reducers) bee's knees paints? Many use just plain 'ol house paint and pouch and deck enamel is a popular option. Get high gloss as it's more waterproof. If you want less than a high gloss, buff it with rubbing compound, to knock some of the shin off. If using oil based paint, mix a good percentage of Penatrol into it (20%), which will also kill most of the gloss too and not affect the surface with micro scratches.

 

To reinforce the prep thing, a recent paint job I did was about 50 hours in prep and less then 10 in actual painting time (all coats combined). The surface was mirrorish and the hull very fair and smooth. This is also why a custom car paint job starts at $10,000, just for a single color.

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Thanks for the input PAR (Paul I think?).  I know it's a huge subject.  I discovered how huge yesterday when I started seriously researching to arrive at what to order for when I'm ready to start painting mine! 

 

The popular brand names all seem pricey to me, some more so than others, and there seems to be a fairly wide range in prices among those. Is it safe to assume that for a given type, single part polyurethane for example, regular, that is MSRP, price is a direct (but not necessarily linear) function of quality.  Or should one look for the cheapest among a given category and quality brand names?  I realize there's probably not a simple answer to this question and am just looking for a best guess from those with some experience in the field.

 

I, like most folks I suspect, hate to paint, so don't mind paying more (and for that matter spending more time prepping), so long as it gets me a few more months/years between re-paintings.

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It's not so much the paint as the prep (again). A low cost paint can go down nice, but not over lousy or insufficient prep. Conversely, you can use the best paint available and still have it look like crap or peel off, without the prep.

 

Paint is just the finish, it's what's under it that makes the good ones out shine the bad ones. Fairing and smoothing operations are the key, plus compatible primer and top coats. A cheap paint usually has a reason for it (solids content, type of vehicle, driers, etc.), typically having less of the things in it to make it durable. For example a very durable paint is that used in industrial coatings, but your color choices might be limited to John Deer green, safety orange, etc. and gloss may not be as high as the fancy, twice the cost marine top coats. This said, you can get custom colors if you mix different colors of the same brand, though you'll be making a custom, difficult to tough up color. I do this a lot, but I've got some experience with mixing.

 

I stick with the major suppliers. A good, relatively low cost single part polyurethane is Rustolum Marine paint. The colors are limited, but it applies easily, though doesn't have the gloss of say Brightsides, I'll bet it can be buffed to have the gloss. I've been using a two part single stage paint (acrylic urethane) that's very similar to automotive paint. I haven't tried it with roll and tip, but with a wetting agent it should lay down nice. It's hard, glossy, durable and retains it's gloss well, plus can be top coated with a clear. This stuff is way more then what you'll need (about $100 a gallon).

 

Rustoleum  1500 System Enamel is a regular alkyd (oil), with about seven basic colors, but can be tinted with regular alkyd tints for different colors. It's about $30 a quart and very tough for the price. It's not as glossy as Brightsides, but (again) can be buffed. It sprays and rolls well and drys faster then typical alkyds. If you prefer a water base Rustoleum 3100 System Acrylic Enamel is similar, with similar color choices.

 

Some will just go to Ace Hardware and get the house brand (Benjamin Williams I think), but it'll have less solids, less pigments, etc., for the savings. This is fine, but you'll get the performance you pay for.

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Paul:

 

System 3's epoxy book / paint literature makes specific mention, and goes into great detail, on the reasons why a person should not use alkyd (oil based) paints with epoxy. Something about the chemistry being incompatible and the paint never cures, so it remains soft and easily prone to blemishes and damage.

 

Is that baloney or is there an element of truth to it?

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I can say from personal experience that the three or four times I've used alkoyd (oil based) hardware store paints directly over Sytem 3 Epoxy, it took roughly 8 months(!) for the paint to harden enough to move the boat without the paint just scraping off. 

 

However, on Rocinante, I used many coats of KILZ water-based primer over the epoxy during the fairing process, then used the alkoyd (Benjamin Moore) over that.  It's a "working boat" finish, because that's what I wanted, but in terms of curing, the paint sticks just fine.  And what I love about using the hardware store paint is how easy it is to touch it up.

 

But I'm a bad sailor and tend to hit docks and rocky beaches, so touch-up-ablily is pretty important to me.  Plus, by not making a showcase finish, I'm not heartbroken at the inevitable first bit of dock rash...

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Of course S3 isn't going to mention other products in their literature, but I was of the opinion their concern about oil based paints and epoxy was universal. Advice applicable to all of them due to the nature of the chemical curing process that they all use. Primer may be the great equalizer.

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Charlie in your post you mention Raka, are you referring to their epoxy or have you used their paints?  I like their prices on paints.

Never used their paints. In fact, since 2004, I've used nothing but epoxy from B and B. 12 boats now, a variety of paints-no problems

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The problem associated with alkyds over epoxy is not common, though does happen. Basically, some alkyds will have a bad reactions with some of the modifiers in the hardener, used in the epoxy.  Not all hardeners (regardless of brand) react this way and not all alkyds (regardless of brand) will have this problem. Which to avoid, well this is a crap shoot, so always use primer, if applying an alkyd.

 

Primer acts as a tie coat, between the epoxy and any subsequent over coats. It also adds a layer of material where you can fine tune the surface. Most good paint jobs have a lot of "blocking" on the primer, to really smooth the surface for finish coats. Skipping primer isn't much of a savings, as you'll need more top coats, for the same coverage and you have less film thickness. I always primer, just having learned to many times the benefits of it, compared to a perceived time and cost savings skipping this step. Top coats just don't have as good an ability to grip a surface as a primer, so . . .

 

Of course, no paint or epoxy formulator is going to recommend anything other than their or sister company products. This said a good quality, preferably epoxy primer will solve this issue. I don't like any of the System Three paints, though I've never had a problem with their primer, I don't regularly use it, mostly because of cost. I also don't use System Three epoxies, again cost and occasional issues are the reasons.

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I'm trying to develop a sense of how much prep time should go into the bottom vs the top paint.  I know its important for the bottom paint to be tough, durable etc. But aside from pride in workmanship is there a practical reason to spend additional time and energy simply to make it look slick if the boat is going to be in the water or sitting on the trailer and not upside down on top of a car?  In other words does the average sane boat builder pay as much attention to making the bottom look good as he does the topsides?

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Unless you're actively racing similar boats, don't go nuts on the bottom. Difference will be measured in fractions of a knots, which can mean winning or not, but other wise . . . This is the sane approach, so knowing the bulk of the board members, drag out the long board and buy some 2,500 grit, for your finish work.

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Unless you're actively racing similar boats, don't go nuts on the bottom. Difference will be measured in fractions of a knots, which can mean winning or not, but other wise . . . This is the sane approach, so knowing the bulk of the board members, drag out the long board and buy some 2,500 grit, for your finish work.

:D

 

JUST 2500??? Why not 8000? Sanded wet!

 

:D

 

Agree- the topsides (waterline to deck edge), and then the deck and cabin ( if it has one), are where to spend time. Bottom is gonna  get scraped up anyway

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  • 1 month later...

 " I stick with the major suppliers. A good, relatively low cost single part polyurethane is Rustolum Marine paint. The colors are limited, but it applies easily, though doesn't have the gloss of say Brightsides, I'll bet it can be buffed to have the gloss. " These were Paul's comments regarding paint types and cost. Bingo. Thanks.

I have been reading about paints for a week and have been getting a little more confused each day but these comments sealed the deal for me. I am going with one part PU Rustoleum. will let you know my experience. I prefer a little more heft than latex but feel 2 part LPU is too "professional" and difficult to apply for my abilities.

Again,thanks. Does anyone know how many quarts/gallons of primer and topcoat for a CS17 with two primer coats and three topcoats?

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Lennie:

 

When you get the Rustoleum, take a look at the label and if says "alkyd" on it, assume it is an oil based paint. If so, before you commit to doing the entire boat, do a test run on a similar coated panel. Then do that cross hatched test on your test panel. If the paint cures hard and survives the cross hatch test, you are good to go. If not, you have saved yourself a lot of trouble down the line.

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Speaking of painting boats, the issue that has always had me puzzled is painting non-skid, either on a existing glass boat like mine that has the non-skid molded in, or one of our boats, where you might use fine sand, walnut shell, or some other type of additive either in the paint or sprinkled onto wet paint to be covered over. The issue is with most paint systems, you are supposed to sand between coats.

 

I've always thought the function of sanding was to knock down any blemishes (which wouldn't be an issue with non-skid), but also to create some "tooth" for subsequent coats to adhere to. Since a sanding is only going to scuff the protruding tips of the non-skid and not the valleys, what then? Seems to me the only solution is to simply put down a coat, let it dry, put down subsequent coats and let them dry. When you have things covered, walk away.

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