Joe Anderson Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Both the Princess 22 and 26 plans seem to specify an outboard. Is it practical to put an inboard diesel in these boats. I know both Peter and Scott went to a custom 28 with inboard diesels. I have only followed the big boat threads casually but I remember Scott saying that modern outboards are very reliable and being able to remove the entire unit easily for service is a plus. But it is obviously not just about what is practical. I like the idea of a little diesel chugging away as the boat works to weather in a blow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Joe, your diesel is a serious financial proposition. Probably 3-4 times the cost of gas engine installed. Just the prop, shaft, Cutless and strut will add up to a goodly sum. Not trying to steer you away from it - I love mine- but it is something to consider. Personally, the whiff of diesel and salt air always bring back a lot good memories. Gas never does that to me - two stroke just makes me gag. Regards PeterP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anderson Posted February 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Peter  I remember your posts about installing your engine. You made up a jig to drill the through hole for the driveshaft. I couldn't even follow what you were doing. I remember thinking that is a level of workmanship that would be a huge reach for me. You are right I am sure about the money, that is enough to give me pause but not enough to eliminate the option. And maybe it makes more since to install a four stroke outboard and fall in behind a ferry or a fishing boat if you want a wiff of diesel.  What I really want to know is. Is it possible to install a diesel in a Princess 26? I am thinking there must be some constraints like hull shape or depth of the floors below water line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Joe:  It may be possible to install one on the P26. Options would seem to be the Yanmar single cylinder 10 or Beta Marine 13.5 two cylinder. Location would likely be beneath the bridge deck between bulkheads 3 and 4. Along with the extra cost (about 3-4X), the smallest one will weigh around 180 pounds, but that replaces the 60 to 80 pounds an outboard will weigh, so adds about 100 pounds, but moves it inboard and out of the stern. The install will be way more complex and you lose the interior room in a valuable place. The outboard option, as designed, comes with the complication of the vertical motor lift bracket vs. mounting it to tilt on it's integral mounting bracket. More complicated to build and more complicated to operate, but also eliminates the prop drag. Really, an auxiliary to a sailing boat vs. the primary "D sail", which most diesels ultimately become.  In reality, a 6hp single cylinder 4 stroke outboard will likely be enough power to bring even the p26 to hull speed at less than full throttle. The 8 hp is actually a 9.9 (same engine) and one of those, with high thrust prop will probably bring her up to 3 knots running at a fast idle. Fuel use be slightly more and comes with the complication of ethanol being blended in.  Lastly, a diesel will be able to run a bigger alternator if you want a large battery bank, but again, that is extra weight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyster Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 I can't specifically address installing the inboard engine in the Princess in particular. But I can say that diesels and drive trains have evolved over time with the down angle gears, jack shafts and even fiberglass shaft tubes that makes installing an inboard under tight under deck space easier.  With the glass tubes, this makes it easier to install engines even off the center line. The sad part is that the industry suffers from fewer choices in the smaller hp models diesels  because of so many more restrictions from the EPA. So this has run up the costs too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Joe, another thing you could consider is a hybrid - something Garry originally toyed with in the 28' concept. Couple of LiFePo batteries, electric drive and a small diesel generator. If I were starting today I would definitely consider this. Alas, I was way behind the curve when Garry first mentioned this. It flew right over my head. By the way- Fishing boat Behind - would that sell as an aftershave? Regards Peter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anderson Posted February 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Peter Hybrid sounds interesting. That would likely open up some installation options. Did Gary mention this in a forum thread or a private conversation? I hope your boat work is progressing. This has been a rough winter but the daffodils are pushing up, I heard a few peepers testing the air and the skunk cabbage are blooming. Â Howard Thanks for the insight. You are building a 26 are you not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Joe, the original 28 sketch was for an all electric drive. You'll have to dig deep to find it- I'm guessing 6-7 years ago or contact Garry directly - he may be able to help. Hybrid is just a natural evolution of the electric drive. By having a capable gen set you can re-charge under sail or run the juice directly to your e-drive and keep motoring that way (when the batteries give out). Too bad I missed the bus on that one. PeterP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Howard Thanks for the insight. You are building a 26 are you not? Â Yes. Not much progress, but yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Peter: Â Is this hybrid drive concept something you pull together from parts or is it available off the shelf? Â I think I have Garry's original P28 sketch.......or several of them. Â For the Princess 26, I have no concerns at all having it powered by a four stroke outboard. Cheaper to buy, easier to maintain and operate and lighter weight. The only thing it will be short of is ability to charge batteries. But I'm not a heavy user of juice now, and don't intend to be with this boat either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014  The only thing it will be short of is ability to charge batteries. But I'm not a heavy user of juice now, and don't intend to be with this boat either. Huh? I had an 8 hp Yamaha on a boat 30 years ago with a built in alternator. And I now have a 9.9 Honda with one on my Renegade. Electric start too.  I easily keep 2 group 27 batteries up all season and for 2 weeks cruising. I am careful with electricity, but I am not obsessive. The Honda 8 hp. 4-stroke is the smallest Honda now with an alternator, and comes in 3 shaft lengths making it fit just about anything you could want to put it on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 The Honda 8 is an attractive looking option. Most outboards in this range have more limited alternator output.......around 6 amps, vs. the 40 to 50 amp alternators you might get with a small diesel. This one, with installed electric start is claiming 12 amps. That is probably enough for my use. It looks like they have come to realize that class of motor needs something more than an alternator to keep a small starting battery charged. Â My intended battery option is a single bank of 2 - 6 volt deep cycle golf cart batteries, which hold about 215 amp hours of juice. Slightly greater than 2 - group 27 batteries. So if it works for you, it should work for me. Â I get about 2 - 3 days use out of a single group 24 battery on my current boat. Main use is GPS Chart plotter/sounder and anchor lights. An LED anchor light will help with that. Â BTW, it looks like your Renegade has a designed displacement of about 6,500 pounds. The Princess 26 is 3,000 pounds less than that. I still think a smaller 5 or 6 hp outboard has enough "oomph" to get the boat around from Point A to Point B under most conditions, but the extra power of an twin 8 will likely be appreciated if pushing against a big tide or a blow. Â I found that out with my current boat, which normally uses a 4 hp outboard. I can get 4 knots out of it at 1/2 throttle. So I tried a 56# thrust trolling motor and found I could get 3 knots out of it. So I used that for a month or two, only to get on and off the docks and maneuver around the marina and other boats during raftups. Worked fine until that day when I had to get back to my slip in 20 knot head winds, gusting to 30.......and it wouldn't do it. I've used the gas engine ever since and never regretted the extra weight of the engine and gas jug it is tethered to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 BTW, it looks like your Renegade has a designed displacement of about 6,500 pounds. The Princess 26 is 3,000 pounds less than that. I still think a smaller 5 or 6 hp outboard has enough "oomph" to get the boat around from Point A to Point B under most conditions, but the extra power of an twin 8 will likely be appreciated if pushing against a big tide or a blow. That sounds like an accurate assessment. I can reach hull speed in my Renegade in calm water with the 9.9 but in a sea and headwind my speed gets knocked down to below 5 kts.. I wanted to get the 15, but even though the weight was about the same as the 9.9 the housing was just enough bigger to not fit in my lazarette/well. When deciding on an auzillary outboard weight and size are huge parameters that need considering as well as the hp and charge you are looking for. If the 8 fits these parameters I think it is an excellent option. Electric start on an outboard in a well is a huge plus. Or in a cockpit area with others near by. It gave my wife a peace of mind to know she could start the thing in an emergency if I were injured. A good sailor does not rely on such things as the norm, but sometimes the back up options are a good thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anderson Posted February 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Good information 8hp Honda alternator output 6 amps. About 5hp is probably minimum for the boat. Outboard has a lot of advantages, way cheaper, easier installation, lighter. I still want to gather some more information on the expensive heavy options. Electric, electric diesel hybrid, and diesel. But while we are on outboards could someone help compare transom mounting to well mounting. Dave and Howard already alluded to a few differences.  Transom Mounted More accessible, easier installation, doesn't take up boat space. But more visible, may foul lines, more easily damaged.   Well Mounted Less visible, protected but takes up cockpit space, more noise and fumes in the cockpit, more difficult installation, less accessible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 My well installation is not like a P 26. My well is aft of the cockpit in the lazarette and the shaft drops through the hull in the stern over hang. It can not tilt, so always in the water. With a displacement hull this does no more in the way of drag than a sail drive, so not really an issue for sailing speed, The disadvantage to not tilting is corrosion and anti fouling protection. The advantage is that you have to look really hard to even notice that I use an outboard and not an inboard. Looks does matter to me. I even rigged Edson pedestal throttle and shift for it, so it operates completely like an inboard from the helm with no contortions reaching controls. Advantage that the weight is not so far aft as stern mount. Disadvantage that it is a pain to get out of the well and off the boat for mechanical work, but I can change oil and plugs etc. without removal.  As for the pluses and minus for a P26 I think you both (Joe and Howard) pretty much know what they are. I hope my mention of this option leads to a more satisfactory decision and not just more to sort through.  As to sorting out your priorities; all I can say is good luck  PS My mechanic friend says that for auxiliary power for a sailboat, the general rule of thumb is 4 hp per ton of boat minimum. This should provide for hull speed even in a sea and wind. My experience proves this out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 So we need a 7 hp? Â Best option of the two will likely be to place the motor in the well as designed. Â Aside from appearance, transom would require a long shaft (well option is short shaft) and even with the long shaft, would likely cavitate in a chop or rough water, which is when you want your prop in the water. Â Leaving it in the well moves the weight about 3' inboard and puts all the controls right in the aft end of the cockpit where they are handy to reach, including the motor tiller, which combined with the boat's tiller will aid in manuvering. I imagine you can spin the boat nearly in it's own length. My current boat has the motor mounted in a cutout in the transom and would not want it hanging on a bracket beyond. If you had it on the transom you would likely need a remote gearshift/throttle control in the cockpit. I would anyway. Â Only downside I can think of with the well is the need to build the lift mechanism. It will lift vertically vs. simply tilting up and out of the water. Not enough room between the #5 bulkhead and transom to tilt up. The new 4 strokes are so quiet, I'm not sure the noise will be a significant issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Interesting thread. Having built a Princess 22 before, I'd say a 4 stroke outboard engine of 6- 8 HP would be perfect  On my Meridian 25, I have a set up exactly like Hirilonde. Engine in a well just forward of transom, prop in water always. Tehani is 5300 pounds dry, loaded for cruise I figure 7500-7800.  I use a Yamaha 8 hp 4 stroke, with a standard prop and have for years. Back then, the 6 HP was the same engine. Would have been great, but none was available.. NOW the 6 is a single cylinder and much less smooth running.  I get hull speed at the "start" setting on the engine throttle control. And over some 8 or 9 thousand miles of travel, have averaged about 15 mpg in flat water. I love the Yamaha for this application since the shift is on the tiller so it sticks out and is simple to use. MUCH simpler than an inboard, and WAY cheaper  Here's how it looks from the cockpit. I have since shortened the actual handle as it used to interfere with the latch on the cockpit locker. Never gets moved anyway- engine is locked tight on center. The only change I would make is I would LOVE to find an alternator to mount on the engine. The brackets are already there. But that hasn't been a real high priority since my solar panel does a good job.                1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyster Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Good evening Charlie. Hope things are well with you down on the RioGrande. ;<] Check in sometime by the wireless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Hey Mike- been a while for sure. Doing well. Got the boat back. Bought Laura out last May.  Right now it's way too cold for me - hoping this one is the end of it. Been a nasty cold winter all over seems like  How you doing these days? Getting any fishing done? And when my old phone crashed I lost your phone number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyster Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 We were on the water this weekend for a quick run the engine and dig some clams. Its been one tough one for sure with the ice and snow and cold for four months now. I will shoot you a mail with the number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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