mwagner Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi Jeff, I have a hard time (flexibility) getting into and out of an old canvas Kayak I refurbished with nylon. You book helped alot, thanks. The kayak is nice and if I position the seat forward enough it seems to float level but my legs are cramped. Sitting to the back brace and I have about an inch of rear deck showing and can't go but ten feet before a 1/2 roll. I don't mind swimming but I really wanted to try a kayak. I like several of the higher volume plans you have but wondered if you offered plans for larger entrances. I realize the use of spray skirts and the like are almost nill but for me I have the interest to go out for a few hours and definitely not in bad weather. Here is my first attempt in a kayak. The first three pics you can see me start out with a lot of bow in the air and I would flip it within feet from shore. I included one with a makeshit seat and kept adding padding till it seemed to float leveler. Since I have moved my CG about 10 inches or more ahead of the back brace i can paddle for a few hours and not tip over. Problem is getting in and out. I need the room to get in and then have to inch forward until my kneed are under the front deck. I did not build this as it was a canvas type boat but recovered it so it was a cheap way to see if I could kayak. Thanks for any input you might have on augmenting plans for a larger opening, Mike Oregon WI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Adding a lager coaming isn't an option. It requires a design change in the frame because the coaming rest on the boat frames. So it not something that can be readily changed. I see a couple of options and I will start with the one you will probably like the least. :-) Exercise, it can do wonders for loosening stiff joints. Secondly, there is just no substitute for experience. Most every one finds getting in kayak awkward at first. I did and now I think little of it. I can get in my least stable kayak without really thinking about it. It just gets easier with time. When I started paddling, because of stiff knee joints I sat on the back deck with paddle under me, extended to one side like a kickstand. I put my feet in the boat and then slid into the seat. To get out I did the same thing. I put the paddle down, hand on it and lifted my bottom on the deck and then I could pull my feet out and straddle the boat. Now I just park my butt in the seat and pull one foot in after the other. It has gotten easier and I have gain flexibility with exercise. As for my boats, the Mess About has a huge opening and it tall and really is a good paddling boat. It started as a fishing boat and I was so impressed with the way it paddled I decided to offer it. It has a large cockpit but because of it's width i still find it awkward to get in and out of. There are the canoes, Stonefly you sit on the floor like a kayak and use a double bladed paddle. It is stable enough you can raise the seat a little too. Crawfish is the same. Sit on the floor, no deck on those so they should be easier get in out of. PS Looking at the photo again and it looks like the boat you are paddling has a pretty round shaped bottom and that does nothing for stability. I suspect but there is no way to know for sure, that you are just paddling a rather unstable boat. If that is the case, you will find a huge difference with another boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi, Mike. Just wanted to welcome you to the forum. Jeff has some great boats and what a pleasure to build one of them. I'm 70 and stiff, and kayaking really hurts my back so I can sympathize with you. I going to give it a try again this summer and see if I can figure out a way to relieve the back pain. I have a Curlew, and there is plenty of room, once you get in. I'd like to build a Stonefly because I think that would be the easiest to enter and exit, and also because they are just plane beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DURRETTD Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Mike, I noticed that you said you added padding. If the padding was under your butt, that would have raised your center of gravity and decreased the stability. You may be able to get the bow down by adding ballast in the bow. My first thought is to use beer, but it doesn't go (safely) with being out on the water. A few water jugs may be a safer solution. If all else fails, you may want to consider a sit-on-top kayak. They're easier to get in and out of. Unfortunately, although they're wider, they are no more stable because you sit higher to give a self-draining cockpit. Jeff doesn't have a sit-on-top design - yet. And, the plastic ones are HEAVY! So, Jeff: how about a sit-on-top design. The cockpit would probably have to be plywood with a fabric-covered hull and a short fabric fore deck. Sounds like a lot of work to design, prototype, and perfect, but there may be a market for it. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Mike, I noticed that you said you added padding. If the padding was under your butt, that would have raised your center of gravity and decreased the stability. OK, I missed that or it didn't sink in when I read it. Yes, even 1" in height can make a big difference! My first skin boat was a narrow little boat that was way to unstable for me paddle comfortably at the time. I struggled to keep it upright and rarely paddled it. For a seat I used an old typewriter pad (if you know what they are) and It is only about 3/4" thick. It wasn't comfortable and one day one of the guys loaned me an inflatable pad to try. I paddled around with it a little bit and pulled up to the bank, reached around, pulled it out and tossed it to him. I am now sitting on the floor. Suddenly I realized I was sitting there talking to the guys and not struggling to keep upright. I paddled it around some and the difference in lowering myself 3/4" of an inch was nothing less than STUNNING! Suddenly I could paddle the boat with ease. Granted I still have to be careful but it went from a struggle to just staying upright to be able to paddle it reasonable comfortably without 95% of my attention being to keep it upright. So, Jeff: how about a sit-on-top design. The cockpit would probably have to be plywood with a fabric-covered hull and a short fabric fore deck. Sounds like a lot of work to design, prototype, and perfect, but there may be a market for it. The sealed cockpit just takes away from the simplicity of these boats. Suddenly you're dealing with epoxy, fiberglass, etc. Weight advantage started to go away. Just not something I am interested in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I use pieces of stringer instead of plywood for the sole (floors as some of you call it). Not only does it look better, IMO anyway, but it now is like separate springs that give more where more force is exerted and results in a very comfortable seat with no cushion. And I bet no one can figure out a way to sit any lower. I am still experimenting with different back band/rest ideas. My latest is a sit upon seat/back rest that has no significant padding but offers much more back support than a simple back band. This is probably no more efficient for a serious paddler, but I like the lounging options it offers. Still playing with it, well, I will be when things warm up. But with a couple short uses I like it so far. None of this helps Mike, but since we are on the subject of sitting and stability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 What are the length and width of the multi chine kayak in the pics? Build one of Jeff's hard chine kayaks it will have a lot of primary stability... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwagner Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thanks to all for you replies. The padding I added was behind me that took up space between the back of the coaming and my back. In the end added enough support to put me about 12 to14 inches towards the bow and it made me float with a much leveler attitude. After thinking about it and looking at the bottom of the boat thought the farther back I sat the more the CG was above the narrow rounded stern VS. the wider and flatter bottom. The kayak is from the 60's and was a home built affair offered by Clark Craft and is basically the same except I sewed on nylon instead of tacks, canvas and rub rails. The shape is very symetrical so the further bak I sit the more bow is elevated. Sitting more forward would be easier if the opening was bigger. Yes, Jeff, I do need to exercise. Darn! I am not sitting on the bottom but really close to it. Bought a seat from walmart (backcountry) or similar so the padding is really more like two layers of thick material but it has a back section with webbing that I wrapped around the frame and it keeps me upright because as you said I need to exercise to regain some flexibility. I straddle sitting on the back deck and start the process to get my 6'3" 230lb butt and legs into it. Feels like I'm putting on a show for the circus! Once inside I tighten the straps till it holds me in a more or less upright position. In the 60's I don't think they thought of foot braces and I never thought of them till I started using it. Too late now to add them but have been thinking of how I might add something to rest my feet on as every 15 minutes or so I have to slide myself back into the seat. I have perfected the 1/2 eskimo roll so very confident I will not get trapped inside. Wet entry so far has been unsuccessful so I float to shore or shallow water and climb back in. I added two 6' strips of PVC wood to the bottom attached to stringers to either side of the keel as protection. This way I can set it in the boat ramp and get in and out while protecting the bottom. I will admit by fall last year I had limbered up enough to paddle for almost three hours and still climb out. This was monumental for me as my usual method was getting a few feet from shore and floating out of it. What a treat my first time was to only have wet feet instead of ending my outing with another baptism! I did rent a plastic yak a few times after completing mine and wish I would have done it before starting my project. I would have ordered your foot braces along with you book for sure. The commercial boat was very heavy but also very stable and with the seat back and foot braces I could get comfortable and handle it pretty well. With it I have come to appreciate the weight of mine as well as how quickly I get to speed. Despite my dousings I am still not discouraged at using the kayak and looking forward to Madison's canoecopia next month. It will surely get me in the mood and I would still like to find a better paddle if only they sold them for twenty bucks! LOL Above zero today but still ice fishing! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I added two 6' strips of PVC wood .............. PVC wood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Tell me about Canoecopia when you get back. I have been thinking about going but it is a HUGE investment for a little company like mine. Booth space alone is $1000. Plus hotel, food, gas, etc. Of course it is the premiere event but I just can't convince myself it is worth it. Matchstick and paper boats in a sea of Tupperware....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bcone1381 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 This is Jeff's Cast-a-way design. My son is about 5'10". It has enough stability to use for fishing, and it's speed is nothing to yawn at. It weighs in at 35 pounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwagner Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Hirilonde, Ok PVC wood substitute. I bought a piece of white brick mold that was and trimmed it to roughly 3/4 X 7/8 or whatever it was that gave me the larger pieces. But basically the original model had a full length keel, two additional wooden strips either side of the keel about 5' long and a metal band (brass) at each end for protection. I think the rub rails running the deck perimeter were to both protect and to cover all the tacks. I haven't added anything other than two strips along the bottom to protect it from parking lot, truck bed, boat ramp and such. Originally the white strips blended in with the nylon but now it has a nice yellowish tint to it so the white really stands out. NOT that it bothers me in the least as I was thinking of tinting but everyone said the two part poly would age after a few months. Now it isn't bleach white and more pleasing to me anyway. In one pic you can see the white pretty well and the others are of the coaming without the seat strapped in. I think you are right in that the bottom is not very flat or at least the flatter area is not very big and if I am not sitting forward enough to get it to level out it is too tippy for me. It was a fun project and I am looing forward to doing one from scratch some day. Jeff, Canoecopia it quite an event but I havn't gone in a few years. I did find an outfitter for a boundry waters trip that was an eye opener. A lot more to it than just renting an ultralight canoe. I found out the hard way about double portaging. Still since I don't have all the high tech light weight items I rented and found it a great 6 nights in the woods and paddled and fished every day, all day. I am meeting a guy there this year in hopes of relieving him of a folding kayak frame. I thought it might make another fun project to skin it, have another go at the goop and to see how it compares to the one I have. In the past 15 years I would guess I made it 6 times but don't recall seeing any SOF there. I will take some pics if I see some vendors there but expect maybe a couple folding kayaks and lots of really nice kayaks and canoes and all manner of supplies that I can't afford but sure like to look at. Didn't realize a spot was so expensive! Thanks all for your suggestions! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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