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Kit vs. Plans, CS17


Tgabe

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What would be the difference in approximate cost between building from the plans or building from the kit?

Also, how much difference in time?  Would the kit require half the time? less than half?  I know it depends on many factors but just wondered if anyone has any thoughts.

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I had run the numbers at the time and I seem to remember about $1000 difference in costs. Then I asked myself, "if I had a stack of plywood here, would I pay someone $1000 to come and cut it up for me?" In the end we decided to not do the kit. I am a little envious of kit builders getting a bit of a jump on the build and also getting to skip a lot of head scratching and inevitable mistakes.

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The kit does save time, but more importantly it saves errors. The time, compared to the total outlay in the build isn't a significant amount. I spent a day cutting up the pieces on CS-17, including lofting things up and making design changes (yea, I'm a sacrilegious bastard). Assuming a 300 hour basic build time, this is about 2% - 3% of the total effort, so not a big deal. Having parts that fit correctly and nearly self align is a big deal, but again, in the over all picture, less then you'd think.

 

I think the kits benefit those that have less than ideal building situations and modest tool choices.

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I agree with PAR.  I should have gone with the kit as my building station and lack of readily available assistance led to several goofs in the process.  Nothing that was unrecoverable, but slowed the process and perhaps spoiled the finish.  Although I am wicked good at using fairing compound and sanding.   I think it is very much worth the extra up front costs to have CNC routed panels to work from.  Far better than my worn steel rule which I discovered was the source of many of the errors! It is amazing how much a 1/16th error per measure adds up over 18'.  I must have dinged the end one too many times as the first inch was only 15/16 long.    

 

FWIW - love my metric rulers and tape measures.  I do the more complex math stuff converting feet-inches-eighths to centimeters.  

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All good points,

From my perspective, the kit was the only way to go, and I am thrilled that I did. I have never built a boat, have some but not that much woodworking experience and the whole process is a bit overwhelming to me to begin with, so the kit left plenty of challenge and higher hope for success. I had taken a stitch and glue course over the summer. It still leaves a lot of work. The other advantage to me was the delivery of not only the plywood but the deck beams (curved), bulkhead trim and stiffeners (curved), temporary bulkhead, all part of the kit, and then the mast and sails, which I bought from Graham. I am hoping to complete the build within a year before I get overwhelmed or bored, and am paying a storage room fee so I considered the extra cost of the kit self funding for my situation.

Good luck

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I'm new to boat building, but spent years building aircraft and  boat interior cabinetry (we were heavily into CNC fabrication wayyy back then). I pondered the kit vs from-scratch option, but especially after discussing the kits with Graham when he was here on the west coast, I'm solidly for building from the cnc cut parts. It saves me lofting time, I suppose, but the parts will be very precisely cut, so the hull is more likely to be true and fair. And I think Graham is very clever in his approach to cutting the parts, especially those that interlock together.  I'm in line for the CS17 kit, and I expect I'll get a tighter, better boat out of it.

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dvto - 

 

I am in Central Massachusetts so if you want to look at my build first hand.  the garage is open.  

 

I figured the same kind of savings building from scratch rather than the kit, but the time is also a factor as well considering the error corrections that will be necessary along the way. 

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In my neck of the woods, Northern CT, 6mm Okume is currently $72 a sheet and 9 mm is $86, so, assuming no messed up cuts, the savings would be just over $1000 for a CS 17.  For a CS 20, savings would be greater, closer to $1600.

 

This sort of swerves into another aspect of the kit vs. plans question, "in my neck of the woods" being the key phrase. In many parts of the country, such as where I live, marine plywood is simply not available. It has to be sourced from somewhere, so that brings on the question of where to order and how much is reasonable to pay for it, not to mention the uncertainty of what it is that will actually show up. Price aside, if you live in a remote area where plywood and other quality materials are not available, buying a kit would sidestep a lot of these uncertanties, along with getting precision cut parts. 

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In my neck of the woods, Northern CT, 6mm Okume is currently $72 a sheet and 9 mm is $86, so, assuming no messed up cuts, the savings would be just over $1000 for a CS 17.  For a CS 20, savings would be greater, closer to $1600.

Where is 6mm Okume at $72 in the Northern CT neck of the woods. The best I've been able to find is high 80s per 6mm sheet at Boulter or CT River Lumber. I'm in Woodbury and trying to plan for a winter project.

Thanks,

Bill

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I mostly agree with Paul and I enjoy his insight but I think that he is misleading when he says that he can loft and cut out the boat in one day. What he has not said is that the kit comes with all of the scarfs cut for the hull and cockpit sides. Every piece of ply for the whole boat is cut except for the coamings and fore hatch.

 

The deck, cockpit sides and seats, cockpit hatches with their coamings, aft bulkhead hatch and doubler, mast steps, centerboard trunk sides, rudder cheeks and blades, bulkheads, temporary frame, all of the deckbeams are cut and notched where necessary and their ends are compound cut, even the mast crutches for trailing are cut as well as all of the holes for wiring the boat.

 

The chine has notches cut for quicker and more accurate assembly as well as dovetails in the chine forward for perfect alignment. The bulkhead and side stringer positions are marked on the sides and the holes are drilled for temporary screwing. The cockpit sides have tenons on both ends which slip into mortices in their bulkheads. They plumb the bulkheads and give the exact spacing so that the cockpit seats will fit perfectly.

 

My guess is that the kit will save closer to 30% over home cut. Builders tell me that it keeps the boat within their attention span as well as giving them the confidence that if the part fits, it must be right.

 

I am just as happy if someone just wants the plan, I have plenty of work.

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Hi Graham, I did loft and cut the CS-17 in one day, though you're correct, I didn't have the scarfs (I used Payson butt joints) completed in the same day. The following day I performed the butt joints, doing them all at once in a few stacks (both sides). Admittedly, I'm likely a bit faster then the average Joe, building a Core Sound (not my first rodeo), but a little forethought (another skill often not seen in home builds) and planning could achieve these results.

 

I have no doubt (never have seen a kit for this) she'd assemble quicker and more accurately for many home builders. I think the most important thing mentioned that Graham has offered, is the confidence a tentative builder can gain with a kit. I can see this not only being a solid "tipping point" for a prospective builder, but a huge boost in confidence, when "tab A" fits precisely into "slot A". There's enough head scratching and crying in any build, so a kit can ease a fair bit of this and it's a consideration that can't be as easily "qualified".

 

Maybe I should qualify my above comments in that, from the beginning of the build, several "changes" where planned, necessitating a loft. For example, the transom has twice the rake, of the one shown on the plans. A kit for me would have been more effort, cutting in "Dutchman's" every place I made a change. Another example is the cockpit seats followed a curve, mimicking the sheer in plan view. Yet another example was the curved transom, which means one supplied in the kit wouldn't fit. The list goes on, so for me and I'll bet most skilled builders, the time savings wouldn't be as significant, but (and it's a big but, much like my other half's, whom I hope doesn't see this) the person looking for speed, accuracy and perhaps the security of knowing how well the parts fit - well the kit is a hands down deal maker and this portion of the industry has revolutionized home builds, with likely much more to come. Now all we need a is a 3D printer, that can pop out wood fiber and resin hull shells - so when are you getting one of these Graham?

 

Below you can see some of the changes on the build. The noted curved seat boxes can be seen, but also the enclosed centerboard case (no arm), no aft bulkhead, which is replaced with a removable seat and a substantial athwart brace on the transom, the curved combing, the side decks shapes are different - in fact a bunch of changes (yeah, those lightening holes aren't on the plans either).

 

post-304-0-29297600-1383580070_thumb.jpg

post-304-0-58103200-1383580105_thumb.jpg

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I built my CS17 before kits were available. Even if they had been available back then I probably would have built from plans. I was happy building from plans rather than a kit because I like laying things out and cutting to fit. It was fun to think through the process and the plans were very well drawn. I liked having the freedom to make a cosmetic change or two. I thoroughly enjoyed the process of building from plans.

BUT

Now that I've seen the skill, care and sheer ingenuity that has gone into the production of the kits - If I were going to build a CS17 today I'd get a kit. No question at all.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

1) You could probably get some small changes on a kit by talking to Graham; everything else small can easily be customized by what you add to hull (type of hardware), or colors of paint, etc.

2) After watching the forums of different kit boats get built it looks fun.

3) Stringers are the only thing left to cut, and that sounds like fun.

4) If you have kids such as I have, a kit is the way to go. Doing 95% of the cutting my kids where unable to help. When it came to fitting in some stringers, or wood that required curves / framing / ect, the kids used a handsaw and loved it.

 

My biggest reason for wanting a kit is a lot less of checking twice or more on measurements.

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