vttramper Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I recently finished a cedar strip canoe and a Kudzu-style skin-on-frame version built to the same design. I kept pretty close track of time and money for both and I thought the results might be of interest. The canoe is a tandem inspired by the classic Chestnut Prospector but with a few modifications. The design was done using Ross Leidy's Kayak Foundry software (which is so cool it is beyond belief). The stripper version is western red cedar, 6oz fiberglass and all cherry fittings. The SOF version is baltic birch framing, dacron polyester (original 8 oz) and also fitted out with cherry gunwales, thwarts, etc. Both boats are a joy to paddle and have pros and cons that are mostly a function of specific use or personal preference. I love the lightness of the SOF and the soft swishing sound the hull makes in the water. I love the feeling of solidity of the stripper and the confidence that a hidden sharp rock won't create a sudden problem. As for looks, I love 'em both, but the nod (in my view) goes to the stripper. Personal taste. As for cost and time, hands down winner is SOF: SOF: Material cost: $380.66 Hours: 110 Weight: 45 lbs (similar to commercial kevlar Prospectors) Stripper: Material cost: $1,169.38 Hours: 172 Weight: 58 lbs (not too shabby, but noticeably heavier on a portage) All dimensions (16' LOA, 36'' beam, etc.) are identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Very interesting comparison! Thanks for this. I am little surprised at the weight of the SOF version but looking at your boat there isn't any obvious extra weight. I can see where I might could shave a couple of pounds but it's sure not over built either. The cherry adds some weight over cedar but it would hard to get that down near 40 lbs! I have to say the odds of a sharp rock doing anything other than scrapping off some paint is pretty slim. I worried about it a lot at first but now I don't give it any thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I know the Canoe, is heavier than a kayak...all those floor boards and inside gunwals and lumber decks at each end ..mine weighed 40 or more lbs...... .But youre price of a cedar strip canoe is way out their...A gallon and half kit of epoxy is plenty..and some 6oz. cloth and some free 11 foot cedar 6X6 cedar beams and you can build a couple of pretty inexpensive boats...Heck I built 2 from old 8foot cedar fence pickets.... http://s147.photobucket.com/user/scrawford_photos/library/16%20foot%2036%20canoe?sort=6&page=1 Old cedar pickets The 16'X36'' from 2 beams weighed like 45 lbs you could stand up in it and fish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vttramper Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hi Kudzu- A surprising amount of the weight is due to the floor. I ran the floor to a length that would allow both paddlers to climb in with their feet on "planks" rather than fabric, which seems to be helpful in use. It is a lot of wood though. This is a clear difference between canoes and kayaks. Maybe there is a better way but I haven't come up with it yet. By the way, many belated thanks for your books, website, forum, etc. I have been lurking here for some time and thanks to you I now have a way to build boats in the winter in Vermont, in the house (instead of my unheated barn) without worrying about toxic chemicals. And there is somrthing deeply satisfying about lashing frames and stretching fabric insteading of gluing joints and epoxying fiberglass. I also built a Wee Lassie (Wee Lashie?) with good results - but again the floor adds weight. Have to figure out a better way... Cheers, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Well, both are nice looking canoes, but I agree, in the beauty category it is hard to beat a strip built. They are art work in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchmellow Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Well, both are nice looking canoes, but I agree, in the beauty category it is hard to beat a strip built. They are art work in my opinion. And endless, tedious sanding. I am way too lazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hay when you build cabinets for 30 someodd yrs. sanding is just part of the game.....When I started out yrs. ago I belt sanded all ,face frames ,drawer fronts, and raised panel doors all with a 3''X21'' belt sander, makes you appreciate my 36'' wide drum sander I have had for years.... So a little orbital sanding on a cedar strip kayak is no big deal.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Interesting comparison and 2 nice looking boats. I love the feeling of solidity of the stripper and the confidence that a hidden sharp rock won't create a sudden problem. I would bet that with decent speed you would get a nice gouge in the hull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vttramper Posted October 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 I have certainly had a few unexpected encounters with submerged rocks and tree limbs in my other strippers. (Putting in to most any campsite in the Adirondacks, for example. A rock ledge qualifies as a beach in these parts.) But my feeling is that it is a boat, not a piece of furniture, so scrapes and scratches are part of the deal. I still feel apprehensive with the fabric boats, though. I know that Jeff's experience is that SOF boats will take a lot of abuse (and I've seen the "they are tough" video) but I still cringe when something bumbs against the hull. In any case, this is becoming my preferred boatbuilding method for a host of reasons. I guess I need to get over the cringing. By the way Jeff (if you are out there) do you get similar toughness results with poly as with nylon? I figure the poly won't give as much, but it still seems pretty tough. I'm probably over thinking this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 I guess I need to get over the cringing. I think you have found the answer to your dilemma. I think both boats are safe for just about anything except white water, especially class 4 and up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 By the way Jeff (if you are out there) do you get similar toughness results with poly as with nylon? I figure the poly won't give as much, but it still seems pretty tough. I'm probably over thinking this. Nylon is more puncture resistant when using something like a screwdriver because it will stretch much more. So it can absorb that impact better. But to have an impact as hard as someone swinging a screwdriver you are going to have to drop the boat off the top of the car or be in swift water the boat being pushed downstream. Neither of which I recommend. But as far as normal paddling goes, there are about the same. It's tough to punch a hole in either one. But you can abrad it. Neither one will stand up to constant abrasion like beaching the bow over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 I prefer the skin boats.... #1 they are lightweight, at 60 yrs. old I don't even like handling a 40+ lb. boat..... In the Ozark streams of southern Missouri the river rock has pretty smooth edges, its kind of rounded over ....And if I really floated and fished that type water all the time I'd have thin 1/4'' rub strips the full length of the boat's keel...and probably the chines too... There is something about these Skin boats,.. Besides the, say 13 lbs. difference in an identical design,(like I have in the chalenger)... Maybe its the quick response in paddle strokes, I don't know but there is something about SOF.....Take away the abrasion factor of the keel and chines and they will go just about anywhere... I always say, function before form (or beauty).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I always say, function before form (or beauty).... There is beauty in function, but not necessarily function in beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 The other advantages to the skin boat in my opinion, (keep in mind I haven't built a stripper,,, yet), is the short time the SOF can be in as opposed to a stripper and much less mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vttramper Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 I agree with you all on those advantages, and here is another: up here in Vermont the weather chases my workshop from the unheated barn indoors to the basement. Than means minimal tools and a strong desire to avoid wood dust and unpleasant and unhealthy fumes from epoxy and marine varnish. I built two SOF canoes last winter and after a little saw work (in the barn) it was dust and toxin free. I used low/no voc finishes which have (at least so far) stood up well. Unless you went down to the basement and saw the boats in progress you would never have known it was going on. Add that to the speedier build, fewer $$, and lower weight and it is pretty compelling. And, again, there is something soothing about the lashing process (and those joints are STRONG!). I must have been bitten bad - we went for an Alaska vacation and spent some time in various museums and while everyone else was wandering about I apent all my time trying to get close up pics of the lashing technique on the old kayak frames on display. For example: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Nice pics. from the museums.....The guy who we built the little tadpole kayak for tells of a time he and his wife spent in Hawaii years ago (before their child came along)... They spent time over their learning outrigger canoe building ...Back hundreds of yrs. ago Lashing was taken very seriously you didn't even speak when you were lashing together the Kings canoe...It was their culture and life depended on it being right.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 A couple of things I think draw people to the strip built boats is there is more chance to get creative and customize the boat in subtle ways that make it totally yours. I admire the creativity for simple things like fitting for the life lines and recessed coaming and hatches. Some of these guys are just amazingly creative with the details. There are so many things they can do with the wood skin we can not. And of course there is nothing that looks like a varnished wood hull. Some people love the building process. I like the simplicity and speed which I can build skin boat. I Spending 100's of hours building a kayak no longer appeals to me. The big thing is I do not enjoy working with epoxy. I can do it and I think I do a good job, I just don't like working with it. And of course I am totally spoiled by handling 34 lb boats. Going back to a 50 lb boat has little appeal to me. I love building skin boats, I have way to many but I am still anxious to build another one. I have a Short Shot kit sitting in my office that I am dying to build but I have no place to store it. I keep looking to sell some of my boats. There are a couple I rarely use but I need them for Show and Tell events. The rest I rotate around and paddle. But I have got to thin out some of these! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 But I have got to thin out some of these! No you don't, no such thing as too many boats! There is however such a thing as too little boat storage room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I used to say that and believed it too! But keep spreading the word, it's good for my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I'm thinking one drawback to a SOF is sellability. You read the same concerns over and over on here from people just starting about durability, leaking, getting punctured, etc. You go to sell one and you would have to convince potential buyers these are not concerns. On the other hand, compared to a strip built you could sell one a lot cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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