Keeping costs down

[Madero]

I am the scout leader for a group of older scouts.  There are about 15 of them.  They really want to build kayaks and them use them on a week-long trip in Lake Powell (Utah) next summer.

 

I have never built a kayak before (except about 35 years ago, my dad and I built a Folbot that he had up until about 2 months ago…). 

 

We are thinking of a touring/sea type kayak, probably in the 15 to 17 foot range, with space for gear.  We have three goals:  (a) Keep it under $200 per boat; b. have a sturdy and reliable craft for the unpredictable waters of Powell; and c. have a finished product the boys will be proud of and will last for at least several more years. 

 

Am I up in the night on the $200 figure?  Are there construction elements where we can reduce costs and save money?  Including the boats for the adults, we will probably make close to 20 boats.  Are you aware of any places that might provide a bulk discount or a "scout" discount?

 

What are some options for skins and relative price of each?

 

The boats on the Kudzu craft forum look great, particularly the Vardo.  'Just trying to figure out how to make all our hopes and dreams come true, without having to break the bank.

 

Any help you can provide on this issues will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

[Kudzu]

I suggested he post on the forum. I figure you guys might have some better answers.  I looked up a spreadsheet I did on the cost recently and here is what I had on a Shad build.

 

$ 30.00  Cedar stringers  

$ 65.00  1 sheet plywood   

$ 10.00  Sinew, oil   

$ 60.00 Paint, rigging

$  57.00  polyester 

   

You would still need footrests and a seat.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Kudzu
cleaned up formatting

[Bcone1381]

You are adventurous!! Two immediate thoughts are, 1) Don't forget about the cost of the strong back upon which the frame is assembled, and 2) it might be easier to raise funds, than to lower the cost. You are considering a very rewarding doable project for these boys where they will apply their lashing and pioneering, camping, planning, and survival skills. You must keep us all updated.

[Madero]

Kudzu, that cost breakdown is very helpful.  I did some calling around and found a source for 1/2" Baltic Birch with waterproof glue, 4x8 sheet, for $52.  I read somewhere yesterday (can't remember where, now, maybe yostwerks) that we can probably get 2.5 sets of cross-sections from one 4x8 sheet.  That would put that cost around $20/boat.

 

Do we need to build a new strongback for each boat, or can we use the same one for all the boats?

 

Finally, would you recommend that we build one boat at a time, to completion, or try to do several at the same time, keeping them on the same track (so we are all doing the same things on each boat).  One of the challenges will be to make sure there is something for each young man to do in the process, while maintaining adequate adult supervision and quality control...

 

Thanks for the input!

[Kudzu]

I thought about this a good bit and frankly I don't see a way to cut cost of these more than just a few dollars because the materials are minimal and there just isn't much room to cut costs. It can sound like I am trying to sell you supplies so I am glad you posted here. But I don't see a way to save more than just a few dollars a boat with out compromising the quality. Done right and stored out of the weather these boats will see be around when these guys kids are scouts. For the money most people spend they are bargain. Of course most of are not looking at a Fleet at one time either. :-)

 

A couple of people have built their own footrest rather than buying them. I sell footrests for $29 so that is not a 0000huge savings per boat considering how nice these are and how well they work. Same with the back band, you could make you own but again, not much of a savings. Past that I haven't come up with anything else and everyone is different but it is not worth it me considering the size of your project.

 

One thing you will need you probably haven't thought of is some tools and clamps but you could figure on a $200 tops and probably closer to $100. 

 

I would build several boats at a time. You can make a strong back using the clamshell method for $20-30? So it's not a lot of money and with as many boats as your talking about, keep in mind that your looking at 40-50 hours labor each boat for most people. That is a fast build but 20 boats, that is around 900 hours. 

 

It's not hard to have two people working on a boat at any time. When your lashing them together you could have 3 or 4 probably working at one time. While some lash others can be cutting out frames or stringers. Once the frame is lashed it comes off the strong back and your free to start another frame while the skin is being sewn on the finished frames by another group. Then they need to painted (waterproofed).

 

Just a guess but for 20 boats, tools supplies etc. If I figure on $350 including tools and all the unforeseen expenses. That would be $7000 and I think your probably looking at less than that. But I always want to figure high so I don't run out of money. If you could keep that to $300 your looking at $6000. I think you would probably be somewhere in between. If you can manage some donations and discounts you probably get under the $300 mark, how much is just a guess. But this give you some realistic ideas of the cost of you project.

[Kudzu]

Just remembered.  I buy BB in 5' x 5' sheets. I have heard of the 4x8 sheets but never seen them. Just make sure it is imported and made in Russia or it is not true Baltic Birch. Many suppliers don't know the difference but Russia is the key.

 

I figure on a one 5x5 sheet per boat kit with a plywood coaming. If I make a laminated coaming I will not use a whole sheet.

 

A 4x8 sheet is only 22% larger so I don't see you getting 2 boats out of a single sheet. You might if your really good at minimizing waste by carefully placing the pieces on there and maybe a 4x8 allows for less waste, but I have my doubts. There isn't a lot of scrap left over from one of my 5x5 sheets when I finish a kit.  3 boats from 2 sheets of 4x8, MAYBE but I would figure on more than that. If you come in cheaper you spend that on something else.

[Madero]

Thanks for the great comments and suggestions.  We have much to think about on our end, but it is great to make these connections.  We'll be in touch.

 

Thanks again.

Dave

[Madero]

One other question...

 

Skins:  Polyester, Nylon, or PVC.  I talked to George Dyson, and he indicated that Jeff is leaning heavily toward Polyester these days.  What about PVC, like Coverne.  My dad built a Folbot about 30 years ago, and the skin was a vinyl or naugahide of some sort.  We were always panicked about scratching the hull or poking a hole in the stuff.

 

Thoughts?

[mitchmellow]

The total cost for my FreeB 14 was $285.  However, the stringers are cheap pine and would be considered substandard by many.  I also did not use Baltic birch plywood.  If there is a next boat both will be better material and the cost will be higher.  $27.50 was related to the laminated coaming (rather unorthodox; refer to previous post http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8784-unorthodox-coaming/ ) and could be eliminated if you went with plywood.  I used the recycled polyester when it was $3/foot although I ordered 2 feet more than I would have needed.  My kayak does not have foot rests. The seat is a converted resin lawn chair ( see http://justyakkin2.blogspot.com/2011/04/reduce-reuse-recycle.html and my post http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8668-frog-obligations/?hl=seat ).  Other seat alternatives have been posted here.

 

Remember the cost of glue, needles, clamps, brushes, rollers, drop cloths, any tools you will need, etc.

 

Do you have a way to transport al of these kayaks?  That could be a significant additional expense.  I have a vehicle that has top rack rails but no crossbars.  I came up with homemade ( = ugly but functional) crossbars for about $20.  That's not in the quoted cost for the kayak.

 

I have several years experience on a church youth committee.  I wouldn't be afraid to approach local suppliers for donations of material.  They may at least be willing to provide materials for cost.  Any successful former scouts that might be willing to support such a great endeavor?  One never knows until they ask.  And of course there is always the traditional fund raising approach (car washes, food stands, magazine sales, etc.). 

 

At the least, volume should be on your side.  I bought my rustoleum a quart at a time.  It was $9.05 with tax included.  A gallon at the same store would have been $28.85. That would hold true for glue & oil.  Perhaps a supplier would consider a different price for 12-14 sheets of Baltic birch? 

 

I really hope you find a way to do this.  What a great project and adventure for a group of young men.  Best of luck.

[Kudzu]

Here is something to think about when weighing your options. Are these one time use boats? Will the kids get them and expect to use them for years? Will another group of scouts use them?  The life of the boat does need to be considered in your choices, not just price.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is the quality of the supplies which goes right back to the above. Cheaper exterior plywood will save you money but cost you time because of the low quality. you will have to cut some parts out again because of hidden voids and delamination may happen. It will shorten the life of the boat too.  Same thing with almost all the material choices. Just food for thought. 

[Kudzu]

I did think of one thing that could save you some real money. If you built tandems, that should cut the costs a decent amount.  But that is not without drawbacks. Tandems are referred to as Divorce boats and for good reason. It takes a well matched pair of paddlers to spend that many days in a tandem and not hurt each other.

 

Second, I don't know of a SOF tandem plan that is suitable for what your wanting to do. I have worked on one off and on but I never have finished it.  

[mitchmellow]

One other question...

 

Skins:  Polyester, Nylon, or PVC.  I talked to George Dyson, and he indicated that Jeff is leaning heavily toward Polyester these days.  What about PVC, like Coverne.  My dad built a Folbot about 30 years ago, and the skin was a vinyl or naugahide of some sort.  We were always panicked about scratching the hull or poking a hole in the stuff.

 

Thoughts?

 

Jeff's recycled polyester is about as cheap as you can find (I believe it is $2/foot right now). Although I only have the experience of one boat I get the impression that polyester is the easiest to work with, probably the most forgiving (because it can be heat shrunk) and the cheapest to waterproof/seal.  A good oil based pain will do the job. 

[Madero]

You guys are great!  Thank you for the input.  I have talked to a couple of local suppliers who would be willing to offer a bulk discount, as well as a scout discount on BB plywood, so that may help significantly.  We have also thought of tandems.  The problem is who gets to keep them...  We are trying to decide if we should build them as a legacy for the troop or build them for the boys to keep themselves for several years.  It may influence their enthusiasm whether they get to keep them after.  Or maybe we could build them for the troop and they can use them whenever they want.  That's a possibility.  Tandems might actually work because we will have some 15 year olds who are taller and bigger and some brand 14 year olds who will be smaller. We could pair them up and have them practice before the high adventure. Just thinking out loud.  

 

Thanks for the input!  Very, very helpful!

Dave

 

(I've also received some input on the woodenboats forum.  Some helpful.  Some not so much ;-). )

[Hirilonde]

A couple of people have built their own footrest rather than buying them. I sell footrests for $29 so that is not a 0000huge savings per boat considering how nice these are and how well they work. Same with the back band, you could make you own but again, not much of a savings. Past that I haven't come up with anything else and everyone is different but it is not worth it me considering the size of your project.

I am one of them.  I found the process amusing and they work well, but I won't do it again. It just isn't worth it and the learning curve to get them to function well is a little steep. I lofted my own frames on my first 2 boats and won't do that again either.  The time it takes to do it well for either just isn't worth it, even when the boat is for me. Having been a Scout leader for 21 years I understand your need to get the price down, but as a boat builder I am leery of compromising on quality when the materials for a SOF boat as Jeff points out really aren't so expensive in the grand scheme of things.  The boys are building a boat that will not just serve the activity it is planned for, but one they will have for years and many other paddling adventures.

[Kudzu]

We have also thought of tandems.  The problem is who gets to keep them...  We are trying to decide if we should build them as a legacy for the troop or build them for the boys to keep themselves for several years.  

 

Maybe I too self conscious about my comments appearing to be that of a salesman, but that is why I like to send people here and answer questions here.  That said...

 

I taught a kayak building class a few weeks ago on the Chesapeake. The Marine Science Consortium sponsored it and they have all sorts of marine related classes from kids to intense college classes going on there. While there my wife came up with the idea of teaching a father son/father grandparent boat building class after I was telling  here about all the kids and grandparent running around for another class.

 

I pitched the idea to the MSC staff and they liked it.   Road Scholar, whom MSC works, has a similar class somewhere else where they build a canoe. BUT the kids don't get to keep the canoe they get to work on and my first thought was would a young kid want to do that?? I found it was not a very successful program either.

 

I am working on details for teaching a class where the kids take home a kids boat. Like you I don't see the motivation if  your not building YOUR own boat! I remember building bookcases in a summer camp and how disappointed I was when I realized it was not mine. I lost my drive to work on them.

 

 

(I've also received some input on the woodenboats forum.  Some helpful.  Some not so much ;-). )

 

 

I saw that and decided not to weigh in. This group is much better at staying on topic and answering questions. There you ask why time it is, you get answers on the theory of time and space, how to build a watch, why quartz clocks are better than wind up watches....... :-)

[AeroE]

Build a finished boat and a bare frame to raffle or auction to help fund the project.  The bare frame would be either for the buyer to finish or as a display as art.  Several paddles, too.

 

I think I would build one boat to start and use that one as the training aid and for development of patterns and fixtures, then pile into the 20 boat project.  Man loading on a single boat will be a little bit of a problem as every kid needs to get hands on and not just observe, but the lashing should go quick!  Maybe two training boats, slightly staggered in the schedule.

 

Standardize the boats and limit the customization to finish and decoration.

[Kudzu]

EXCELLENT SUGGESTION!

[andy00]

Dave:

Skin-on-frame kayaks are great; I built and use one. It's the most-used boat of my fleet.  However, Jeff's comment about tandem boats got me thinking. The more scouts per boat, the lower the cost per scout. Some youth programs feature kids building and using pulling (rowing) boats. These can range in size from boats for two up to eight or more rowers. There are designs available for simple plywood construction. It may also encourage more teamwork within the crews and be easier to carry camping gear in a pulling skiff or gig. Just a thought. BTW, you're doing a great thing!

Fair winds, Andy

 

 

[mitchmellow]

Black Dog Kayaks in Wisconsin ( http://www.blackdogkayaks.com ) has a 21 foot tandem/triple (Cerbius).  It looks like they sell kits and in 2012 were planning on selling plans( http://www.blackdogkayaks.com/kayaks.html ) but I have a little trouble with their website and can't find a page to order on. It looks like it would take an email or phone call.  There is an article on duckworks from someone who used one for a charity float ( http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/outings/kure/index.htm ).

 

Dave Gentry has the plans for a skin on frame 18 foot rowing wherry ( http://www.gentrycustomboats.com/ ).

[mitchmellow]

However, 20 individual Vardo's would be awesome!