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Shad kayak being built in Twin Cities, MN


bhart

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The weather has not been good in Minnesota this spring.  That has given me time to make some progress on my Shad kayak.  I started assembly this weekend.  Here are some pictures of my progress. 

 

First things first, I cleared some space to work:

 

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Next, I put the keel in place:

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The first two frames were installed:

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Gunwales held in place:

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Stringers held in place:

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Starting to take form:

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Shot down the length.  The finished kayak will be 17.5 ft:

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Most frames set in place:

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Had to try my first lashing:

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Setting the bow in place to start fitting:

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My first problem to be solved.  The bow does not seem to want to fit properly.  The angles seem off. Look at the gap where the keel stringer is supposed to be lashed to the bow assembly.  I am going to have to stare at this awhile.  For now, I think I will do some more lashing of frames in the center of the kayak.  I will have to post some questions regarding this later.

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You're doing a neat job Bryan but yes there does look to be something amiss. At first I thought it was with the mopunting brackets because there doesn't seem to be enough rocker. A bit more rocker at the front would make the keel come up at an angle and be a closer fit. However I looked back at Gorn's build and his doesn't seem to have much rocker either. Also I notice the 2 brackets shown in one of your photos are identical so the front part of the keel is meant to be essentially flat.

 

This suggests there is something wrong with the bow piece itself. It doesn't seem to be pointing upward enough compared to Gorn's build and the photos on the Kudzu web site. The bow and stern aren't swapped are they? I only ask because the stern looks to be flatter. The only other thing I can think of is that the marking out has an error somewhere - it's easy to do (guess how I know :rolleyes: ) - but it looks as though you are working from printed plans so that shouldn't be it.

 

Keep at it , you'll work it out eventually.

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I'm pretty sure I have not swapped the bow and stern.  I thought of that, but I am working from full-size plans that I purchased from Kudzu. Also, as I removed the paper patterns from the cutout plywood pieces, I wrote what each piece was directly on the plywood to keep track of things.  I have compared my bow and stern shapes to some pictures on the Kudzu blog website and mine appear to match up.  After studying the problem over the past couple of days, I am a little stumped.  It seems like no matter how I consider modifying the bow piece, it will tend to impart a slight downward bend on the gunwales.  My expectation is that the gunwales should continue to sweep up all the way to the tip of the bow.  Is my expectation right or wrong?  Is there anyone who has built the Shad that can let me know if they have run into this issue?  Thanks

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You will have to wait for Jeff to comment here for a sure answer.  But I had a similar issue with the Freebie 12.  I did however find that after bending the gunwale stringers to the bow, trimming and lashing them that it looked just fine.  I think it is critical to do all other lashings before the bow and stern regardless of what you do, or don't do about how the bow lines up.

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Just checking in and I agree that something isn't right and my first guess is that there isn't enough rocker. One thing to check is to make sure that the keel strip is not bowed. Wood can move and it could be it is not bending correctly. I have had that happen  I have something I have get out this afternoon but I will look up the heights on the brackets so you can double check those are right and in the right order too.

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Jeff,

 

I appreciate the response.  The keel stringer is not bowed.  I put a straight-edge on it between the 11'7" and 15'7" brackets.  Note, per the full-size plans, both of these brackets are the identical height and interchangeable.  I may load some additional pictures when I get a chance this week.

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I had to look at the drawing and the keel  has to make an arch from the bow back to the next bracket. I suspect your is just not bending the way I had in mind. The keel should be almost flat along the center of the boat and then curve up at the ends. Looks like yours is fighting back and not bending as I had in mind. You may have to pull the keel downward toward the strong back somewhere between those brackets to get it to bend into the proper shape. If takes a lot force it will straighten it's self back out.

 

Sometimes the piece of wood you choose may want to fight back. It might bend better if it was turned the other way or you might need a new piece all together. I have only run into that a couple of times but I am thinking that is what your dealing with. 

 

Also, I notice you drilled a single hole in the keel, I assume for lashing? You need to do a Y lashing or you will never pull that in place and that would require two holes. AND, I don't recommend the holes in the stringer for lashing. It could lead to the stringer splitting along the grain at the hole. That is why I lash under the stringer with a small grove. A hole could be a weak spot and allow the wood to split when you bend it or stress it.

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Jeff,

 

It helps to know that there is definitely supposed to be an arch in the keel between the those brackets.  I wasn't sure since the brackets are the identical height which seemed to indicate the keel should be straight in that section.  Now I know that assumption was wrong.  About how much arch should I be putting in the keel?  Should I expect to pull the keel down 1", 2", 3"?

 

Over the weekend, I did experiment a little using a clamp to pull the keel stringer down between the bow bracket (located at 15'7") back to the next bracket (located at 11'7"),  However, as you mentioned, it seemed to me like it would take a lot of force.  I was concerned that once I removed the kayak from the strongback the keel might want to straighten out and end up pulling the bow down.  My dilema is ... I have no way of knowing what too much force feels like.  It's almost like I will have to lash it all together, remove it from the the strongback, and see what happens.  That's a little stressful, but may be my only course of action at this point.

 

By the way, the hole in the keel was a newbie mistake.  I will be filling that with a dowel and structural epoxy (T-88).

 

Thanks for the response.  I may have more questions as I work though this.

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I am not in the office so I don't have the frame numbers in front of me. But what I was trying to say is the keel is relatively flat in the center.  The two ends will have most of the curve/rocker in them. Lay a straight edge on the layout drawing on the plans and you can see it better. You want to pull the keel downward in between the third and forth/bow bracket. Not in the center. You want it to have a little more curve at the bow and a little flatter towards the middle of the boat.  If it takes a lot of force then it will probably try to spring back and most every boat will spring back some. If it is really stiff I would check and see if any other pieces would bend better or that one would bend the other direction better. 

 

These frames are always going to flex some, so you can't force a lot of shape in them.But they don't have to be exact, each boat will be a little different. That's  just the nature of this style of construction. 

 

Another thing is as you lash in the other frames they will help to force things into place somewhat too. The gunwales are the most rigid section and they do more to determine and hold the shape more than any other piece. What Dave said about lashing the Gunwale in place is right. In many cases the ends will fit better once the gunwale is in place. 

 

Even with all this. sometimes one will just refuse to go together as expected. Not often but I have had that happen on a couple. Sling Shot just gave me fits! Best advice is to be careful and make it bend as best you can. Clamp it tight, lash it tight and expect some spring back. But don't get overly concerned about it at this point. 

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I thought I would give an update on my bow/keel fitting.

 

 

Here is where I started (angled gap between keel stip where it meets the bow assembly):

 

post-3162-0-65770700-1366767512_thumb.jpg

 

 

I used a clamp to pull down on the keel stringer between the first 2 frames.  I was able to get rid of the gap.  Note the frame that is part of the bow assembly is not 100% verticle.  It angles ever so slightly forward toward the bow tip. This seems to be the closest I will be able to get it.  Hopefully, it will not be an issue :

 

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This next shot shows the amount of bend I had to place in the keel.  The keel is pulled down approximately 1/2" where the clamp is:

 

post-3162-0-72391800-1366767534_thumb.jpg

 

 

This shot shows the entire keel section between the front 2 brackets.  Does anyone have an opinion on if this looks right or wrong?  Should I move the clamp closer or farther away from the bow to make the keel bend differently? :

 

post-3162-0-98335500-1366767579_thumb.jpg

 

 

This is just another view of the front section of the of the kayak:

 

post-3162-0-02153100-1366767603_thumb.jpg

 

 

I'm still not entirely sure I'm handling this correclty. When I look at the plans I don't really see any downward bend in the keel between the first 2 brackets. I guess pulling the keel down by only a 1/2" does not sound a lot, but to the eye it looks like a lot. 

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After all is done, the fitting, lashing etc. and the boat removed from the strong back it will settle all of the forces exherted on itself.  I don't think you can completely predict what will happen.  If it were me I would simply complete the work and then see what I got.  I bet the result is quite good.  You can always cut some of the lashings and try something else if you are not satisfied.  But until you try something, you will get no where.  This isn't an exact science.

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I have considered removing a small amount of wood from the bow piece.  I still may do that.  But, I didn't want to make that change until I received some feedback from the forum community.  I figure Jeff designed it the way he designed it for a specific reason.  I know a fair amount about woodworking, but I'll admit I am not very knowledgeable about kayak design or boat building.  To my eye, it seems like the keel should be more or less straight from the second bracket to the bow bracket, then arch upward from there.  Looking at the plans, that's what it appears to do as well.  However, if that's the case, why would the bow pattern have an angle at the location where the keel attaches to the bow piece.  As I said, I don't know a lot about kayak design.  If that section is flat verses a bend, how will that impact the way the kayak handles and tracks in the water?

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First off I don't see a lot of lashings on the rest of the boat. That will make probably make some of the pieces take a different shape.

 

Did you try another piece of wood? Or try flipping that keep over or even swapping it end for end? 

 

I think you are over thinking it. Dave is right, just lash it together and see what happens. It's easy to back up if you make a mistake or see a way to make it better it's easy to cut them out and do it over. Don't start making changes till you know you have a problem!

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I have not tried another piece of wood for a couple of reasons.  First, I have lashed almost all the frames to the keel, and I have completely lashed probably 4 frames to the gunwales and strings in the center section of the boat.  Another reason is that no matter what piece of wood I use for the keel, it will have to be bent downward between the first 2 brackets to fit the notch angle that was designed into the bow pattern.

 

I just thought it would be worth asking some questions since something did not seem right.  I'll stop thinking and move on with the project.

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  First, I have lashed almost all the frames to the keel, and I have completely lashed probably 4 frames to the gunwales and strings in the center section of the boat. 

This alone might be why you are seeing a problem that may not really exist.  I don't bother lashing any of the keel till near the end, and obviously to none of the frames clamped to brackets until the frame is completely removed from the strongback.  I lash the bilge and gunwale stringers to the center 2 of the bracket supported frames before I do anything else.  I figure that if I can get these lashings done with the frames square to the strongback and level then I have a sound start for keeping everything else in line for the rest of the lashing.  I then work my way to both ends alternately fore and aft by frame.  I constantly check for level fore n' aft and athwartship on all frames as I go.  I also check for spacing between frames at each stringer as they should all be the same.  I site for a true straight line often as well.  I find if I do this well during the lashings, then all other parameters simply fall into place as that is how the boat was designed.

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Jeff,

 

I appreciate the response.  The keel stringer is not bowed.  I put a straight-edge on it between the 11'7" and 15'7" brackets.  Note, per the full-size plans, both of these brackets are the identical height and interchangeable.  I may load some additional pictures when I get a chance this week.

 

I think I just found the problem! Give me an hour or so to verfiy it.

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