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EC22 - #10


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#1 ecgossett

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:18 AM

Plans are in hand. I'm prefabing parts in my carport, but still looking for a build location for the hull. If anyone knows of or can rent me any places in Kitsap County or Bremerton WA area please let me know.

 

Questions:

1) Would a balsa-cored carbon-fiber deck be lighter (stronger?) then the 3 layers of 4mm okoume plywood cabin top, and 6mm for deck. A lighter deck and cabin top would offset the negative ballast caused by a heavier deck. According to http://www.sagemarine.us/sage_17.html they saved almost 100 lbs of weight doing this on a much smaller boat. Even if would weight is light I still might get similar savings.

2) I'm trying to figure out how to insulate cabin hull better for NW waters, would foam for the forward hull versus double layers of 4mm okoume be lighter and warmer? Also take the forward bends easier. Of Course I could just use space blankets glued to to insides of cabin bilges under bunks and directly on bunk.

3) I'm starting prefab on  the carbon fiber / birds-mouth top mast sections. Is there anyone in the Kitsap County area who could help me cut the birds-mouth cuts, I've never made a mast this way??

4) Any lessons learned from transferring lines from full size patterns would be appreciated.

I'm pre-cutting stringers, bulkheads, & jigs. Pre building centerboard, rudder & assembly, and cabin top. 


- Edward

http://coresound17.blogspot.com

s/v Forty-Two

St. Marys, GA


#2 Joe Anderson

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:17 AM

Ed Congratulations on starting your build.

 

On transferring full size patterns. I drove brads through the pattern just inside the lines. then I removed the pattern and reinserted the brads into their previous holes in the plywood. Next I used a batten to drawn in a fair line connecting the brads. Cut out 1/16 to 1/8 off the lines and bring down with a plane. I was dealing with paper patterns I think you might have mylar which I know nothing about.

 

I never weighed my cabin top, but my wife and I picked it up to install it on the boat. I doubt it could weigh 50 pounds. The deck is an engineered structure deriving most of its strength from the beams, or rather a combination of the beams and skin.  If you are really good and have plenty of money you maybe could save a few pounds, but you could easily end up with something weaker and heavier.

 

When I built my EC22 I was way over my head and I knew my only chance was to follow Grahams plans like a narrow path through a dark wood. I stepped off the path in a couple of places I just could not help myself, but I didn't stray far.



#3 Howard

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:30 AM

Ed:

 

I think it would be good to remember that the boat you have begun building is an exotic, high performance racing sled, purposely designed and built for the EC race. The cabin is really not much more than a small cuddy to serve as a small shelter for the crew to get out of the weather to get some rest. Those waters, those conditions and for that crew. Any attempt to deviate much beyond that and modify it to suit different needs is probably going to mess up something somewhere. That should probably became your mantra and something to refer back to anytime you get the notion to deviate. As Joe suggest, stay on the path.

 

As for the Sage 17, a cabin like that might be better, but I can say with almost 100% certainty that it is being built upside down in a fiberglass mold that was taken off a mocked up plywood version of the same cabin top. It starts with a layer or two or three of gelcoat sprayed into a the mold (after about 20 coats of hand rubbed mold wax has been applied), then mat, then glass and the carbon fiber, then the balsa core, then more glass or carbon to complete the sandwiched layup. It is a production boat and they can justify all the labor and expense to build the molds because then intend to build hundreds of them. I don't think you can duplicate the shape (perfect) or construction method any other way. The bottom or hull half of the boat, with the signature Montgomery lapstrakes, is done the same way, as is the liner pan in the middle. So yes, a cabin like that might be better, but it's not likely that you can afford to duplicate it for a one of build, and as Joe suggests, it might not make that much difference.

 

As for a place to work, I seem to recall you may have access to or work from a military base. If so, they may have a hobby shop on base where you could build something, or have tools to borrow and use? The normal process for birdsmouth masts requires a table saw to make the two 45 degree cuts. An alternative, if you have one, is to use a router on a router table. There are special bits you can use for those.

 

BTW, the boat I have been sailing for nearly 12 years or so is a Montgomery 17. It has a little sister, the Montgomery 15. The Sage 17 was based on both of those boats and is seen as a new and improved version of both. For it's type, it too is a small cruising boat with good sailing performance, as are both Montgomerys. Don't know how long you will be in that area, but there are several Monty's around there. Walk the docks and you may see some of them.

 

Interesting that you should mention the Sage 17. I can't think of two boat designers who are more alike in their desires for personal comfort (or rather lack thereof) and ability to exact best possible speed out of a boat and they manage to do it in different ways.  I find it ironic that Jerry has nothing good to say about a cat-ketch rig, preferring fractional 7/8th's sloops over all else, mainly for their ability to point and go to weather. He still uses the low profile, pie shaped centerboards, but does use a high profile, lifting foil for his rudder. He spends a lot of time tweaking and tensioning the rig and claims it makes all the difference in the world. Get it wrong and she is a dog. Get it right and she takes off passing everything in sight......to the high side.  Most of Graham's designs are unstayed cat ketch rigs and they work well too. On our typical six mile race, I suspect that in a good breeze, a well sailed Core Sound 17 would lap my Montgomery 17, simply because the Core Sound boats are so fast. Granted, they are not dragging around 500# of ballast, and can plane, but speed is speed. There isn't much moral victory to be had watching that stern disappear over the horizon. But later on, when I finally do get to the anchorage, and the rain that followed the frontal wind we enjoyed earlier in the day starts falling......in buckets....... I'll be more comfortable battened down in my little cabin. The point being there are plusses and minuses to everything. Pick the best possible fit for you (and the conditions you will be sailing in) and go with it.


Spindrift 10N #529

#4 ecgossett

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:45 AM

No hobby shop on any local bases, I have the tools just need a better work area; am following some leads, I already use the RV storage lot for my CS17 on base.I pretty much had to give everything up to a DNA test in the 9 different forms I filled out to keep the boat there. 

 

If I can't loose any weight on the boat its not a problem. I was just planning on adding a little in rubrails, and 4 ounce layer of glass on deck top, and cockpit floor, as well as cloth on outside of hull.

 

My patterns are mylar.


- Edward

http://coresound17.blogspot.com

s/v Forty-Two

St. Marys, GA


#5 Ronny B

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

  I have just started my OB20.  It is very easy to transfer drawings with the mylar.  Hold it in place on the wood with a few small pieces of tape and  slide a few sheets of carbon paper under the lines. Just trace it out with a piece of slightly sharpened wood. I can't remember where I read this but it was on this on this forum somewhere.  He used a piece of sharpened deer antler.  Mark the centreline and waterline while your at it.  Good luck!  






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