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Princess 26


Howard

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Howard,

 

I just placed my order for the P26 plan in no small part due to the friendly and helpful B&B Yachts family of folks and forumites. So I am following your build thread with much interest. You seem to be in the middle of one of the more complicated sections of the build and if you don't mind I would like a little more clarification on how you resolved the issues you brought up about the forward bottom stringers not conforming to the bulkhead slots and the way the bottom panels were laying on those stringers and the keel planks.

 

Thanks, Rex

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Rex:

 

Have not had much chance to work on this since the last post, but have been doing some head scratching on ways to resolve some problems I'm seeing. Getting the stringers in place was not such a big deal. Moving forward from there has been a bit more of a challenge.

 

There is a 6 foot plus span between BH#1 and BH#2. Purpose of the stringers in this area, as I understand it, is not so much for structural strength after the build is completed (as is the case with stringers on glass boats), but rather as a support for the panels during construction to force them into the correct bend. Problem being that with such long span, the plywood panels are stiffer than the stringers, so as I attempt to force the curve into them, they push the stringers aside. I think I have solved much of that problem by building a support scaffold in the middle, so the stringers can't deflect. The panels still don't lay flat on them, so next step will be to plane a flat on the high side of each one.

 

Also, it is apparent that my eye isn't good enough to work with a single batten to fair the keel planks and stringers, so I have cut and installed a set of 2" battens, spaced about 8 inches apart. These will be temporary, but used to make sure the keel planks and stringers all line up well and will be supported. These will run all the way forward to the bow. In retrospect, should have done this in the beginning. Photos of this will follow and will make a lot more sense than my description has.

 

Also working on finding a way to get the forward most panel edges to line up with the side panel edges on the chine. This is forward of the area with the notched panels. I would describe this as a rolling butt joint, if there is such a thing. Have some ideas but have not yet resolved a solution that works for me. I think some have used chine logs, but I'm trying to avoid using solid wood as much as possible. Again, future photos will make this a lot simpler to understand.

 

I've got work deadlines looming, so have not been able to work on this as much as I would like. Still hoping to get her buttoned up and the entire bottom on before cold weather shuts me down. That will be in a month or so.

 

Anyway, hope what I have shared is useful. If you hurry and get busy, you can pass me and then I'll get to follow along behind you!

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Howard, everything you are sharing is useful. It's highly unlikely that I'll pass you on this build, though. Like boat design, life is a series of compromises. And right now, while time rich, I'm cash poor. In addition, I have a smaller boat build ahead of the P26...something I can get my water fixes with while working my way through the Princess plan set. I'm privileged to have your detailed build documentation as a guide. I look forward to your next series of photos.

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Managed to spend part of a day working on the fairing in the forward section of the keel to enable me to move forward in a more timely and accurate manner.

 

So here are some progress photos showing solutions and a potential issue I'm looking for advice on how to resolve.

 

As I'm seeing it, despite the increasing curvature of these bottom forward panels, the 7 degree or so bevel on the keel planks seems to carry forward a lot farther than I expected it to. Seems to work pretty well until the panel ends that affix to the keel plank work forward of BH#2, by which time, the forward ends are somewhere between 2' and 3' forward of BH#2 along the chine. Keel planks then require an increasing taper until just aft of BH#1 at the keel. What is supposed to happen with the keel forward of BH#1 has me stumped.

 

At the stem itself, bottom panels have to be nearly vertical as there is no way to bend them, yet the aft edge of the forward most panel begins to twist almost immediately, with as much as half an inch or so of twist needed to conform a 6" wide panel to the chine edge of the side panel, the stringers and to butt up to the keel planks. By the time you move aft of the stem and stem knee even a foot, some bevel is needed, but with three points already touching (bottom panel edge at the chine.....lower stringer, upper stringer and then on to the keel) not nearly enough bend in the bottom panel is possible to reach the centerline. So somewhere within a span of 30 inches or so, you have to go from attaching the side panels to the keel planks from nearly vertical on the side of the keel planks at the stem to more horizontal on the bottom as you move aft to BH#1. I"m not sure where that point is or what the overall shape of it should be. Photos show where I left it at the end of the day, which is not finished, but figured I'd better get some advice before I continue farther. Basically, the forward most section seems to need to transition from a partially exposed keel plank to to one that is covered by the bottom panels. How that transition takes place or the shape it needs to take is a mystery to me.

 

One thing about hacking around on the keel planks.........by the time you reach this stage, you and they are far enough along you won't be replacing them, so when you start removing wood to get the shape right, you remove what you need to remove, and no more. Putting it back on is not an option.

 

More bottom panel notes/observations: Plans suggest you will go from notching the side panels along the chine until you get about 2 feet aft of BH#1, and which point you start a butt joint process that will eventually lead to full on butt joints at the stem. That 2' aft of BH#1 location is spot on. Problem then becomes finding a way to join the edges when there is nothing to clamp or hold to. After some head scratching, this is what I came up with. Using a 2" wide scrap of plywood salvaged from waste and drops, butting one edge against the side and the other end under the stringer. A drywall screw through that will draw the edge down as far as you need it to and is strong enough to hold it in place until you can get an epoxy spot weld in place. This butt joint at the chine will be heavily glassed inside and out, with a large fillet over the inside joint, so I'm not too concerned about it holding long term. I put these screw held clamps under some really severe bends.....to the point of thinking the plywood would surely snap, but they held fast. With a wider 6" panel, one on other edge should do the trick.

 

Last photo shows the amount of twist needed to close in the forward section. It is a lot. Last photo also shows the scaffold system I devised to buck up beneath the stringers to give them support. Even with that in place, they deflect down a bit from the bending pressure forward and aft of of that scaffold slightly, but not enough to matter. (6 foot span has been cut to 3 foot). I plan to leave these temp shaping battens in place once I resume planking, so they offer some resistance too.

 

But back the shape of the stem, forward of BH#1, what have others done? Wayne? Brent? Charlie? Chick? Anybody? Photos would help visualize what it is supposed to look like.

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One more trick, and perhaps this should be mentioned on the tools and tricks thread.  When I started to remove the screws that held the stringers to the stem knee, the first one snapped right off. It was stainless and will be buried, so it will be left, but wanted to avoid doing that again if I could. I was using a small hammer drill, which has the torque, but does jolt it pretty good. Sometimes it breaks loose but sometimes it snaps off the screws.  What to do to avoid snapping screws?

 

To anyone who has spent much time on the boat building threads, especially woodenboat, you are probably familiar with the name Bob Smalser and his expertise with old time tools. A long time ago, I was reading a piece by Bob about the best tool to use to install or extract screws and that was an old time brace. A brace would allow you all the torque you would ever need, plus it goes slow and you can actually feel when the resistance starts to ramp up. It also turns out that modern six sided driver bits will fit into a brace chuck with no modifications needed.

 

With the brace, I managed to pull all the remaining screws without breaking any of them. Moreover, they came out like they wanted out. It also worked like magic to set the depth of those side panel edges to allow you to align the edge of the panel to the chine edge.

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Wayne:

 

That looks familiar. Hoping mine turns out that well. Part of my trouble with seeing this fit together is the angle of my temp battens may not be true to the way they will align once the actual bottom panels arrive at the stem. Yours appear to have more angle to them, but that would all depend on the angle we each started with.

 

I think I now have it in good enough shape aft I can continue moving forward. Perhaps by the time I arrive at the stem, a solution will have presented itself? But in the meantime, I should keep moving forward. It's not like I get to skip enclosing the bow section. Has to be built somehow.

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Wayne,

In your second to last photo, it looks like an added piece of solid timber (maybe call it a nosing or forefoot?) between the base of the stem cap and the fore end of the keel planks, right there at the last (foremost) piece of bottom plywood planking.

 

Howard,

I can understand you not wanting to remove any more of the keel plank material than necessary and I certainly do not want to lead you to do same (I do not even have my plan set yet). But in your last photo the fore end of the keel planks look too "fat". Right there at the aft end of the stem where you cut "cheeks" off of the fore end of the keel planks with a hand saw, it looks like a transitional "rolling bevel" needs to work it way further aft, efeectively thinning up that area of the keel planks, i.e. the same area I mentioned above to Wayne where it looks like he added a piece of solid timber "forefoot".

 

rswenson,

Tricky area of the build, indeed!

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Thanks Wayne:

 

Looks like you managed to maintain a V joint nearly all the way forward, with no separation of the panel ends until the last foot or so. I spoke to Graham and that was his intent, so that's where I'm headed. For some reason, it also appears your stringers do a better job of aligning to the keel than mine do. Depending you how you interpret the language in the plans ("space the stringers evenly through the bulkheads"...........evenly from the edge of the chine to the top of the keel or evenly from the edge of the chine to the edge of the keel?), that holds potential to alter things in an adverse way. I divided up the open space, but perhaps should have considered the tip of the keel at it's apex to edge of the chine as area to divide. That is the total end to end span of the panel. Yes, a complicated area to consider.

 

It may also matter that I have yet to cutout / round over that fore foot section, as per plans. I expect that to change the appearance of it some.

 

Also appears you made some modifications from the plans. You appear to have doubled the stem cap and added hardwood cap to the fore foot and perhaps a bit along the bottom edge of the keel, aft a few feet? Hardened edges for the tip of the spear?

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Still plugging away at this as time allows. To finish up the fairing at the bow, I expanded my use of fairing strips to make it a solid run forward of BH#1. That's where it gets complicated.  Without being able to butt to the adjacent panel, getting the angle of these right is tough as there is some twist to them that throws the dimensions off a bit. Making this section solid, using thin fairing strips stapled into place helps an "iffy eye" see this take shape.

 

Looks like I'm getting there, but still need to do some more pruning at the bow.  For now, am only working on one side. Once that looks right, will be easier to get the opposite side to match.

 

Did a test to mimic Wayne's use of a chine log between the stem and BH#1. That does make it easier to attach the panels, but not too much of it can stick up, else it will push the chine edge of the bottom panel outward as it bends over the edge of the chine log. If not kept short, it will have to be beveled.....that would be a complicated rolling bevel. This mostly applies to the part aft of BH#1, where the side and bottom panels intersect at some angle. Forward near the bow, bottom panels and side panels make a nearly vertical butt joint.  Chine log could be used like this with clear tape on it to prevent epoxy sticking to it. Simply screw it into place, use it to screw to, then remove it to add glass tape inside after the chine edge is set with epoxy.

 

Have also begun the process of rounding over the bow section, as that is part of the keel fairing process. If you go back to post 135,   (http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8440-princess-26/page-7)%C2'> you may recall the way this stem, stem knee and keel planks came together differed from the plans somewhat. Not sure if it was something I did or some other glitch, but at any rate, it is now time to deal with the change. Not a big deal, but the outcome will differ from that shown in the plans somewhat. I notice Wayne put a solid wood cap on the bow. That is not shown in the plans, but may not be a bad idea. That is the tip of the spear that is the boat, so whatever is found there needs to be durable.

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I am aware of and think I understand the nature of the stem cap. In fact, I already have one cut out and ready to go.

 

What I am noticing on Wayne's photos is he appears to have gone one step further and added what looks to be a cap on his stem knee, as well as what may be an additional cap on the bottom of the forward keel section.

 

If you look at the progression of his photos, they show how the bottom panels come together and are initially rounded over at the base of the stem, to the stem knee and alongside the keel planks. As it appears to come together through this section, which shows on the plans to be rounded over as Wayne did initially, there will be exposed edges of plywood on the forward most bottom panels, as well as the solid lumber that is the stem, stem knee and forward keel planks. Kinda resembles pants that are unzipped. He then goes from what was rounded over stem knee to what becomes a straight stem knee section covered by a rounded over solid wood cap. Since that cap does not appear on the plans, it looks like he may have freelanced this part to put a hard durable edge at what I think is called the "cutwater".  If not for this cap, it would need some type of really hard, durable edge put on it as this will be the point where the boat makes contact with anything floating, groundings, beachings, etc. My plan was several layers of glass or perhaps xynole or dynel. If a person used wood, it had best be hard and durable, and perhaps something you might want to be able to replace? On the other hand, this might be more of an imagined problem than a real one. My existing glass boat is 35 years old and it has a few dings and scratches up there, but nothing major.

 

As for a cap of any exposed plywood edges along the keel (will only apply to the first foot or so, I wonder what might happen if a person used a solid bar of 1" to 1.5" x 3/16" copper or silicon bronze for this edge? It could double as a skid plate forward, PLUS a lightning grounding plate at the base of the forward tabernacle. Run a bronze bolt through the keel to the base of the tabernacle and terminate your grounding wire from the masthead at this point? Not sure if that gives you enough grounding dispersion area, but you could run it back along the keel as far as you needed to.

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  • 1 month later...

Have received my plans (P26 #24) and beginning to study them. I notice the Stem plan page calls for a 1" SS half oval cap on top of the wooden stem cap. Don't know how that metal piece would bend and I suspect it would flatten in the process. But perhaps it could be extended below the waterline and around the cutwater and act as the skid plate you mention.

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  • 5 months later...

Ron:

 

Have had a far too long pause in my progress. Simple answer is life got in the way. We moved a while back for the first time in 25 years, and that has left things unsettled. Thought it might help as I"m now 15 minutes closer to my build site than I was, but so far, that has not been the case.

 

Hope to resume soon.

 

PS: I stared at that bow section for a good 20 minutes or so the other day, and time away helps. I think I can clearly see now how to button her up.

 

Howard

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  • 3 weeks later...

Howard,

 

I share your sentiments about life. After completing a roof and slab for a work space late last year, I walked away from it and moved, too. Fortunately, my arrangement for the softwood delivery fell through before I moved so that material is still at the supplier's.

 

I am just now at the point where I am contemplating another structure for a work space in a different location. And now, at 64, I will be constructing a new home along with the boat...so much work!

 

I look forward to your next posts.

 

Rex

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