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PHRF - CS17


ecgossett

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Does anyone have any clues as to filling out linked form for PHRF??

 

It does not seem like it was made for this type of rig.. Not sure if the staysail counts as a spinnaker. Do I even put a boom measurement in. Has anyone registered for the rating before?

 

http://www.phrf-nw.org/forms

http://phrf.intransport.com/sites/default/files/New%20Member%20Application_1.pdf

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PHRF is not suitable for small boats like the CS17.  Small sailboats use the Portsmouth Handicap system. 

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick.htm

 

I would guess that the CS 17 should rate about 100 or perhaps a bit less (faster) on Portsmouth Handicap.  There is a method for cross rating Portsmouth numbers with PHRF but I don't remember what it is.

 

PHRF is usually based on time and distance but can be done as time on time against the scratch boat in the fleet.  Portsmouth is always time on time.

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Ed,

 

Some areas will rate small boats...I am on the committee in Narragansett Bay, RI and we do have some "around the island" races that allow almost any type boat (like a Thistle for instance).  Like Tom says, small one-design boats are usually handicapped by Portsmouth Rating.  You can fill out the form and call it a Cat Ketch and give dimensions requested for both sails and rigs and also declare the mizzen staysail and give dimensions for that.  

 

I just finished my Core Sound 17 and will attempt the EC again this year...wish you were going to make it.  

 

Regards,

 

Phil

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Ed -

 

Glad you asked this question.  I have been itching to get back into this aspect of sailing here in Southern New England. 

 

there are a few list at the New England phrf (I used to do a lot of this) http://www.phrfne.org/uploaded_files/valtype11.pdf.  Portsmouth numbers for comparisons are at http://offshore.ussailing.org/

 

a J22 is 180 =  portsmouth 82.7

a J24 is 168 = portsmouth 80.8

Seapearl = (somewhere near 200 pending equipment) = Portsmouth 96.6 

 

some math involved but I would think it would be around the SeaPearl or a little lower putting the CS 17 somewhere around 200 in PHRF land.    I used to race on Cape Cod with my Herreshoff Goldeneye (an 18' keel boat ) and was given a rating of 265 which was about right in the races I was involved in  (new rating has it at 280, which I suspect is too high). 

 

We will need to test and time it!  will crew for beer.  We will need to lower Phil's rating for his carbon spars! 

 

I hope to get going on mine once the tuition bills for my daughter are paid.

 

I see a CS 17 class forming in our area within the next year!  pretty exciting.

 

 

 

I think the previous posters are right, find a comparable Portsmouth and then convert. 

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PHRF is not suitable for small boats like the CS17.  Small sailboats use the Portsmouth Handicap system. 

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick.htm

 

I would guess that the CS 17 should rate about 100 or perhaps a bit less (faster) on Portsmouth Handicap.  There is a method for cross rating Portsmouth numbers with PHRF but I don't remember what it is.

 

PHRF is usually based on time and distance but can be done as time on time against the scratch boat in the fleet.  Portsmouth is always time on time.

Tom I wish this was true in our area. I want to participate in things like the Classic Mariners Regatta coming up in Pt. Townsend through Wooden Boat Foundation and they all require smaller boats to register with PHRF which sucks. I'm not sure it's kosher or popular to "crash" a sail race or regatta. My yacht club commodore in St. Marys GA invited himself and crew unannounced into a sailing race by Amelia Island, Not only was that yacht club pissed, when he pulled in and cut off multiple boats and created havoc complaints went out to the coast guard and Florida Water Gestapo (also known as DNR).

 

Some math and figuring out proper dimensioning on form for a cat-ketch is involved. Also how to rate lack of traditional booms.

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I have been race committee for more regattas than I can remember.  Have developed rating and scoring systems for mixed boats with crews of mixed abilities.  One thing is always true.  You can only try to be fair but you can never be either perfect or even close to it.  It is much more difficult these days than yesteryear because the speed potential of boats is much wider now than then and depends on wind conditions much more.  When almost all boats were limited to displacement speeds, rating them was much easier.  Mixing "sport boats" with the old displacement kind is a guessing game and no one really wins.  Same thing with small boats that are capable of planing mixed with the old PHRF kind.  Conditions will often dictate the result and the RC is just making the best of a fundamentally unfair situation. 

 

You can use a formula to match Portsmouth to PHRF but I contend that is it a fools game and its best just to enjoy the sailing and don't get upset about who is the winner on a rating system.  The only true fair system is one design racing.  All else tends toward an arms race unless people accept the fact that ratings are flawed and just have fun.

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I have been race committee for more regattas than I can remember.  Have developed rating and scoring systems for mixed boats with crews of mixed abilities.  One thing is always true.  You can only try to be fair but you can never be either perfect or even close to it.  It is much more difficult these days than yesteryear because the speed potential of boats is much wider now than then and depends on wind conditions much more.  When almost all boats were limited to displacement speeds, rating them was much easier.  Mixing "sport boats" with the old displacement kind is a guessing game and no one really wins.  Same thing with small boats that are capable of planing mixed with the old PHRF kind.  Conditions will often dictate the result and the RC is just making the best of a fundamentally unfair situation. 

 

You can use a formula to match Portsmouth to PHRF but I contend that is it a fools game and its best just to enjoy the sailing and don't get upset about who is the winner on a rating system.  The only true fair system is one design racing.  All else tends toward an arms race unless people accept the fact that ratings are flawed and just have fun.

This last sentence says it all.  I have all but given up this aspect of sailing. 

 

Most enjoyable for me were the pursuit races:  these start with someone putting a cooler of soda on a beach and then everyone starting in reverse order of speed potential.  We would all be headed towards the beach at the end, with the winner being the one to pull two sodas from the cooler (one for each crew member).  Start times were adjusted based upon previous results. 

 

"A" fleets for experienced sailors and "B" fleets for hacks like me worked well for the Cape Cod Frosty.  http://www.capecodfrosty.org/  these 6' luan boats were originally put together with fiberglass window screen set in bondo.  masts were closet poles, and quite a few made their own sails.  I admit I learned a lot when being schooled by Olympic sailors who used this event as a quick tune up on a Sunday.  When I stopped racing due to family and job commitments, the boats were variations of oakume, epoxy, carbon, aluminum, laminated sails (suffering spectacular delamination on very cold days).  Admittedly, sailmakers, and racing shops were using this cheap boat as a test platfrom for some of their ideas.  Win, place, or show it was always fun to gather afterwards for hot clam chowder.  

 

this is why events such as EC, and other Watertribe events look so appealing to me.   there are so many variables and obstacles to account for, that a good sailor in a good boat still needs to make excellent tactical decisions, and the event planning is critical.   if no wind, the ability to row or paddle is essential.   

 

wow.  I'm hopped up now.  gonna make space for the building platform in the garage right now for the CS 17.   

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I started racing Blue Jays as a kid.  Then as a young adult I tried MORC.  I hated it.  I never raced handicapped again.  I will race you  (proverbial you)  one-design any time.  You pick the class.  I don't care if we race bath tubs, if we both have the same brand it is a fair and fun race.  (I prefer Kohler)   :P

 

I think the Optomist is a silly boat.  But the whole world seems to have agreed this is the beginners racing class.  I hope this never changes.  My first grandchild is due this Spring.  I am already looking into building him one, much to my daughter's disbelief.

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The big problem with rating planing dinghies like the CS17 is the rating changes a lot based on wind strength. The Portsmouth system tries to fix this by giving different ratings at different wind velocities. My guess for DPNs your CS17 goes like this: BF1-2 = 103, BF3= 99, BF4 = 95, where BF is the Beaufort wind scale. 

 

I've done a little PY racing against small cruisers in my CS-17. In light air <8-9 knots, you're going to get killed by a Catalina 22.  But if it's blowing anywhere in the teens, you'll walk away from them on downwind and reaching legs. 

 

Catalina 22s rate 96 or so on the PY scale and 250+ in PHRF. My guess for a CS17 would be 270+ unless you live in area where it blows hard all the time. 

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I'm dealing with this very issue right now at my club for the CS 20. The consensus seems to be to give the boat a rating somewhere in the 200-220 range to start, and adjust after each race until we have a number that most can agree on. Personally, I'm not hell-bent of getting such a favorable rating that I will be competetive with the fastest boats in the fleet. A rating that puts my corrected times in the same ballpark as well-sailed Catalina 22s and Pearson Ensigns would probably be about right.

 

In my experience, boats with ratings under 150 will on average beat those with 200+ ratings. But this probably is because the most competetive and exacting sailors tend to be on those boats.

 

I will report back after a few races on where my number ends up.

 

Cheers,

Pete

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"I want to participate in things like the Classic Mariners Regatta coming up in Pt. Townsend through Wooden Boat Foundation and they all require smaller boats to register with PHRF which sucks."

 

 

It looks like that, but isn't quite the case. I've been involved in the CMR for several years now, and have raced my centerboard double-ender a few times. The race organizers originally used their own system of ratings, but got so many complaints they gave up and went to phrf about eight years ago. This worked for the motivated keelboat racers, but left the casual participants behind because phrf costs money and is too much hassle for a lot of people.

 

The small boat fleet was completely out of luck because phrf is made for keelboats with cabins; open centerboard boats aren't even rateable under the rules. To get around this, boats in the inshore fleet were given "faux phrf" ratings that allowed them to race more-or-less evenly with the smaller, slower keel boats. This has worked, sort of, for the few small boats that regularly come out for the Mariner's. If you want to come and race in this year's regatta, that's great! We'll find a way to fold you in somehow, and try to come up with a rating that makes a degree of sense. Depending on how many little boats show up, either there will be a separate Inshore Division, or we'll get put in with the C (Cruising) division.  Win or lose, it's still a fun party in a nice place with nice people and pretty boats out on the bay...

 

I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can...

 

cheers,

Lynn

s/v Katie Mae

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  • 1 month later...

We just raced in a reverse-start pursuit race with a PHRF of 261. The fleet of 8 boats was quite varied with a number of cruisers rated in the 200s as well as a couple racers in the mid 100s. The lowest rating was 120 for a J80. Over a course of 2.5 miles we had about a 5-6 minute head start on the J80. They passed us in the last 100 yards of the race. A Holder 20 also barely edged us out at the finish. So, we finished a close third with the remainder of the fleet well back. Winds were light, about 4-6 mph for the majority of the race.

 

There is a short video summary at:

 

http://goodfootsailing.blogspot.com/2013/03/nothing-says-springtime-like-wednesday.html

 

Happy spring to everyone. Here's to a good sailing season.

 

Pete B

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Nice video, Pete -- thanks for posting. What lovely light you have there!

 

Those are useful numbers you gave; we can work with them. Let's say that, with a 5-1/2 minute head start, the J80 caught you just at the end of the race. That's 330 seconds over 2.5 miles, or 132 seconds/mile. This is the exact format that phrf is measured in, so you can just add that to the J80's rating to get 252 for your boat. It looks like your rating of 261 is pretty close, and you should do well with it. I'd love to see what happens when it's blowing 15 or so and you can get up on plane -- there could be some red faces on the J boat, huh?

 

It looks so warm in your video; can't wait for tshirt sailing in the Salish Sea...

 

Lynn

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Thanks Lynn. Yeah, one of the advantages of Texas are the mild winters. This year has been especially so. More years than not, we have great racing on New Year's Day. Should you ever find yourself down this way in the winter, give us a shout. However, by the time August rolls around and the temps are regularly hitting triple digits, most of our sailing is a nighttime.

 

Pete B

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