Core sound 20 mk2 vs Everglades challenge 22

[Tom the rower]

Do both have water ballast? 

Which one is more rowable?

Do they both have the same sail plan?

Which is lighter?

Which will do better in bigger seas/weather?

What about shallow water? kick up rudder and center board/daggerboard?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Tom

Jacsonville, Fl

(just built a boat building shed 12 ft x 31 ft)

 

[Designer]

Tom,

 

Only the CS20 mk2 has water ballast.

 

The CS20 is more rowable. Alan and Paul in Dawn Patrol have proven that in a couple of NC challenges. That said, the mk2 does have 2" more freeeboard which may make it a bit more difficult to row than the original.

 

The EC22 has a bigger sail plan than the CS20.

 

The EC22 is built lighter than the CS20 which brings it's weight pretty close to the mk2.

 

For raw speed, I would go with the EC22.

 

They both have centerboards and kick-up rudders. Both can sail to windward with no rudder or centerboard.

 

Having sailed the EC22 in a lot of weather, I am very confident in it. That said, the mk2 felt very good, with water in the ballast tanks it has a higher range of positive stability than the EC22 which means that

I would have to give the nod to the mk2 as being more suitable in larger seas and weather.

 

The mk2 would be easier to build than the EC22.

 

.

 

[Tom the rower]

Well, after studying more about the cool "fold out" method of building, I am more inclined to build the cs 20, as it seems alot easier than the EC22.

 

 

Are there cnc kits available?

 

Graham, would you build a cabin like Paul and Dawn have on thiers?  Or, do you prefer none?

 

Could a sliding seat rig be a doable thing?

 

Thanks

 

 

Tom

Jacksonville, Fl

[Designer]

Tom,

 

I think that the CS20 mk 2 is definitely the best choice.

 

If you follow the CS20 mk2 string you will see the cabin which is similar to Paul's boat. The extra freeboard, self draining cockpit and the repositioning of the bulkheads etc makes it even better.

 

The mk 2 prototype was cnc cut, I would like to cut and build one more to make sure that I have all of the parts fitting perfectly.

 

[Tom the rower]

There  is a 2013 Small Craft Skills Academy in Cedar Key , Fl 4/22/12.  I wonder, now that I have my super big boat building shed made, if I started now, might I be done by then.

 

I am pretty sure about the hull itself, and painting it.  It  is just that darn mast thing and the sails.

 

Do the directions tell about the mast and sail plans?  I have seen alot about birdsmouth masts, and could probably do that, but also purchased already to long aluminum pipe.  Rowing is so much easier than figuring out masts. (except when rowing into the wind)

 

I can drive up there to pick up a cnc kit (the daughter and her navy husband are being transferred from here (NAS JAX) to Virginia beach.  So, a trip up is inevitable.  Of course, I would want to avoid sales tax.

 

Or, I can go to a plywood only dealer here in Jacksonville, Fl and get 1/4 and 3/8.

 

 

I suppose for a beauty like this I would have to special order Okume or Meranti?

 

I got some off the shelf 1/8 inch to make some 16 ft amas, but they were too ugly to show anyone, so they have sat in the yard for over a year, no paint, and no delamination.  Maybe I just go lucky, and of course, the backyard is the water.

[ecgossett]

The aluminum masts turned out to be easy. Just don't listen to all the people in your local boating community who know better and think you should go with a single size of aluminum, etc. Go with the type and sizes specified in the plans.

 

The sails you just need to order from Graham and Carla and you will get tried and true with all the little details for a cat-ketch.

[Designer]

Dave,

 

There are several sheets in the plans on the masts and the rigging. If you can get up this way, I am sure that Chick would be happy to let you see his boat. There are a lot of pictures that go with the plans but you could add to those with your own.

 

You can contact me directly if you want to pursue it further.

 

[Chick Ludwig]

Tom, I'll be glad to show you my Mk-2 at any time. This was my first time to make a stepped aluminum mast and I was intimidated by the "un-known". Turned out to be easy!!! There is no birds-eye as all three sections are aluminum. There is a picture of the sections ready to slip together in the building thread---check-it-out.

http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8080-cs20-mk2/page-3

(See post #42.)

All BandB boats are well designed and though out, and tested. And there are LOTS of builders just waiting to help you out---and Graham welcomes your questions if you contact him. I hope you choose the Mk-2 and begin building soon so you can be ready to sail this summer. We could get together and do a short cruise up here if you can get time to come up this summer.

[Tom the rower]

Chick, 

 

What do you think the total hours were in your build? Graham seems to want to wait for another build to refine the design, but I may have to force his hand by sending $$$. Flood able water ballast, a cabin, speed and stability, and a great sail plan.

 

 

Tom

[Tom the rower]

Called Carla, ordered the plans, check mate. 

[Chick Ludwig]

I didn't keep track of the hours, but it went quickly with all the ply precut. The total build took about 6 months with only working on it 4 to 6 hours a day most days, 5 days a week. I think that the only parts that may need fitting will be the cabin and decks. The hull, cockpit and interior should be perfect.

[Tom the rower]

Thanks, can't wait to start.  I may have to take you up on the offer to see the boat.  The daughter and son in law (navy guy) just got transferred up to Virginia beach, so I am sure the wife will want to go up there soon enough.

 

We went to see the wife's grand dad on xmas eve, and I was showing him pix of SCAMP's, and Hap's cut's and Core Sound 20's and telling him of my boat building lust, when he told me to go up into his attic and retrieve a big box.  The wood box was so heavy that I had trouble lifting it and finally got my son in law to help with one side.  Turns out the old man was a see bea and ships carpenter during  WW2 and for years afterward was a carpenter.  He worked on the convoys going to england and saw ships ahead and behind go down due to german subs.  He worked the great lakes and showed me a pic of a 600 ft freighter that he said on lake Superior had waves over the top of the ship.

 

This box was made by him and contained his best wood working tools.  A bunch of hand saws with different kerf (spelling??) teeth and 5 planes, one of which is 2 1/2 ft long, a special sharpening stone (presumably for the blades on the planes), even a egg beater type drill with bits in the wooden handle.  Scraper tools that look like they were made for removing excess epoxy, but who knows what they are really for as I don't think he worked with epoxy.  Anyway, that was the best xmas present ever.  Vintage Tools, for my brand new Core Sound 20.

[Hirilonde]

This box was made by him and contained his best wood working tools.  A bunch of hand saws with different kerf (spelling??) teeth and 5 planes, one of which is 2 1/2 ft long, a special sharpening stone (presumably for the blades on the planes), even a egg beater type drill with bits in the wooden handle.  Scraper tools that look like they were made for removing excess epoxy, but who knows what they are really for as I don't think he worked with epoxy.  Anyway, that was the best xmas present ever.  Vintage Tools, for my brand new Core Sound 20.

That was a great present!  So much of even modern wooden boat building can be done better with hand tools than any of the new fangled junk on the morket.  Technology is great, but sometimes the best way to do things was figured out many years ago.

[John Burritt]

Congratulations! Good sharp hand tools not only do at least as good a job as the power "goodies", but they are a lot quieter and not nearly as messy.

[Chick Ludwig]

Wow---I'm jealous!!!Have to admit though, that I'd figure out some way to put motors on those old tools! I love to see the vintage tools, but----HEY---PUT DOWN THAT ROCK----I'M SORRY!!!

Enjoy the tools.

By the way, are you getting a kit, or building from plans? I built several from plans until the Mk-2. Now I'm sold on the kit! It saves a lot of time, and things fit so well with Graham's interlocking joints. Just like a big model plane. Maybe you could start with the hull kit with the interior components and then finish the deck and cabin from plans. Either way, enjoy your build! We're looking forward to watching your progress on your building thread (string, whatever). Post lots of pictures.

[Tom the rower]

Well... frankly, I didn't see that there was a kit for the cs20 mk2.  That is why I was strongly considering the SCAMP, and the Haps cut. The SCAMP looks almost unsinkable, but, too short. The Haps cut has a nice fully covered area forward of midships, and then there was Chuck Leinweber's 25 ft Caprice, with a queen sized bed, and a seperate galley, forward hatch over birth with wind scoop for cool sleeping.  But, it is 25 ft and either of my two 20 ft expedition rowboats just fit my boathouse. A 25 ft would stick out into the rain.  The CS20 seems like a speedster and best practices safe.  I probably am not going to camp in the thing anymore than a watertribe event, so, otherwise I will be a daysailor.  I may anchor off the dockline for a few days at time, if demasting seems too much effort for easy lifting.  I guess I will use good bottom paint, like a builder of Core sounds, a pro suggests.

 

Where do you get a kit at? any links?  I had already envisioned putting the SCAMP kit together, but after seeing Allan row his CS 17 with his girlfriend for hours, as I tried to keep up  with their boat, but I was paddling a kayak based trimaran ( and paddling sux, at least compared to rowing.) and finally pulled even with the CS17, but could barely stay with them.  I told Alan that catching up with him was the hardest thing I have ever done. Then, the wind picked up late in the afternoon, and they took off !!  I never saw them again.

 

Tom

[John Burritt]

Contact Graham re: a Mk 2 kit. Sounds like Chick's boat came in some version of a kit.

[Chick Ludwig]

Yes, Graham is working on kitting the Mk-2. Mine was the first one, and was intended to check the fit of the parts. I got in a rush to finish in time for the BandB mess-about and didn't do very well at getting Graham the info. to modify the last few parts (deck panels and cabin parts).

There is plenty of cockpit room for day sailing. The main mast raises VERY easily on a tabernacle, and the mizzen is easy to lift and drop into the mast step-tube once I made a guide to "guide" it into the hole. One of the great thing about this boat is the "rig-ability" and "trailer-ability". Forget the bottom paint and let her live at home with you!

Hey---I'm getting excited---let's go sailing, y'all!!!

[Tom the rower]

I live on the water with a dock and boat house.  My lift contains my 20 ft high sided sliding seat expedition plywood rowboat, which I row most evenings at sunset and beyond with a mixed drink.  When the drink is halfway done, I turn around and come home.  There are only two types of days here, windy as hell or no wind.

 

The cs mk2 will be for those windy days, but, since I have created 3 anchorages off the dockline, it may spend a couple of days at a time in the water, free floating on an anchorage, so bottom paint might be worth while.  I am legally allowed one covered lift and one uncovered lift.  I just had 4 long/big pilings jetted in for an uncovered lift.  Ideally, I would still keep the rowboat in the covered lift and the CS 20 in the uncovered, but that might end up being visa versa, especially if that mast and tabernacle is easy to do.  I gotta tell you, having the rowboat so that all I have to do to use it is lower it makes it much more likely to be used.  That would be nice for sailing.

 

My 19 ft trimaran is a pain, as it has to be parked on one of those anchorages, and then I have to wade out in waist deep water to get to it, and now it is cold, and it's a one seater anyway. With the monohull, I can take my wife out sailing.  I only learned to sail this summer,, and have been telling her how exciting it is.

[Hirilonde]

 I love to see the vintage tools, but----HEY---PUT DOWN THAT ROCK----I'M SORRY!!!

Its obvious you have little to any experience with hand planes or you simply refuse to learn how to use one.