19 replies to this topic

[gorn]

Hi Guys

Im hoping I can get some more good advice here.

 

Im having big issues getting the recommended timber and ply for my Shad build.

 

Western red cedar seems to be very expensive here, Baltic Birch is like rocking horse poo and chickens teeth here....RARE!!

 

Naturally I want the kayak to be light and strong, at least as strong as the original design was intended.

But I dont want a boat anchor weight either.

 

How much difference in weight and strenght would there be if I used regular pine for the stringers, and AA grade marine ply for the frames?

 

To give you an example of pricing here, 1 sheet of 1/2" AA grade Marine ply is $79 , I asked what type of wood it was, and got the answer of "dont know, its marine ply..."

 

Need some help here!!

 

Thanks

Aaron

 

[Kudzu]

Where is here? Give us a location and that will help.

 

Cedar is not cheap here but keep in mind how little you need too. Look at the total cost of the boat, not just the price of one item. Tthere may be other cedars in your area that will work just as good. WRC is just what I have access too.

 

As for Baltic birch plywood, as I have said over and over, you will not find it a hardware store, average lumber  yard or any of the big box stores. You will have to find someone that supplies plywood and hardwoods to the cabinet shops. It took me a while to find a source in my area and I drive an 1.5 hours one way. If you really want your boat to last, take the time to find it. It is so much better than any US made marine plywood.

 

If your dealer doesn't even know what type of wood he is selling, keep looking! Odds are it is Douglas Fir and if it is made in the US it's probably not a good quality. I was using a DF ply and it just kept getting worse everytime I bought. It got to the point I refused to sell my clients frames made from it.

I am rebuilding a Sea Skiff that was made using DF ply and there is not way in I would put what they make now back in my boat! The old wood in the boat is amazing quality compared to the new stuff. I don't know what I am going use but it will be imported. US plywood sucks and it's sad too.

 

I am going to look at putting up a sticky note addressing wood choices since it is such a common questions.

[gorn]

Hi Jeff

Im in Australia.

Local stores just look at me funny when I tell them what I need

I will keep trying, as I know they sell it on the East Coast, but Im on the West Coast, almost 4000km away

I even tried for MDO plywood, but so far no luck.

[Hirilonde]

Where is here? Give us a location and that will help.

Yeah, really.  As there is no such species as "regular Pine" this would help a lot.

I am going to look at putting up a sticky note addressing wood choices since it is such a common questions.

I am not a big fan of turning a forum into a data base, but this subject needs to be saved and posted.  It comes up over and over.  Especially some good facts about plywoods.

 

There really are a lot of woods that would work for stringers.  Check out this woods chart as it has most of the wood species one might consider and their characteristics.  It also has a good description of the different types of strength.  Many people mention strength in their questions and answers without considering that the word itself means little without being specific about the type of strength one is referring to.  Different situations require different kinds of strengths, and only understanding this will help one to make a good decision.  And if the sales people can't even identify their products and wood species, go some where else.

 

I guess the simple answer regarding plywood is just as Jeff says above.  Do what ever it takes to get either real Baltic Birch or I would also suggest Okoume, Meranti or Sapele BS 1088 marine ply.  Nothing else is worthy of your efforts in building a kayak. No, the junk they are calling AA marine plywood is none of these.   You deserve to end up with the best boat you can build.  And saving a few bucks on materials is not even worth consideration.

 

A $300 and 50-80 hours of work piece of junk is not worth saving $100 or even $200.

[woodman]

 Hi Jeff

Im in Australia.

Local stores just look at me funny when I tell them what I need

I will keep trying, as I know they sell it on the East Coast, but Im on the West Coast, almost 4000km away

I even tried for MDO plywood, but so far no luck.

Aren't these guys over their,,Mabe they can help...   http://www.facebook.com/PlywoodPirates

 

I think a lot of posts on this site are their also.....http://www.seakayakforum.com/index.php

[Kudzu]

Did not realize you were down under, that a whole new ball game and I am not going to be able to help much there.  I have shipped a lot of stuff there and I know they are building them but I have no idea as to what you have available.

 

There is a big Australian based wood working forum and it has a boat building section. I can not remember that name but that would be a good place to start. Will post a link if I can find it.

 

Found it.  http://www.woodworkforums.com

[labrat]

Gorn,

 

For stringer material I think you might be in luck. I am just starting to build a Curlew and obtained some paulownia from Qld. It is lighter than any cedar and ideal for this purpose. There is a paulownia producing company not far from you called Highpoint Timbers:

http://www.highpoint...ct/contact.html

 

See how you go with them. Being as close as you are you won't have to pay the same freight costs that I did.

 

As for ply, I am considering risking construction grade but not without some precautions. I am doing some experiments on small pieces by soaking one in water for several weeks and the other I will apply tung oil to. If it holds together under both of these conditions then that aspect will be OK as far as I am concerned. Jeff shows some of this type of ply delaminated in his book and that is a good warning to be careful hence my material trials before committing. If the trials fail then I guess it will be hoop pine marine ply but even this is extremely expensive. Another aspect is strength and the number of plies. Still thinking about that.

 

Jeff's tip about the woodwork forums is also good. They have just taken the step of separating out the kayak and canoe builds from the general boat building section. In trolling back through the old threads I found one by Jeff in the days before SOF - it was a S&G build with a strip deck.

[gorn]

Hi Guys

Thanks very much for the links.

 I will start trawling through them today

 

Paulownia looks interesting, I will give them a call on Monday, and have a chat about its properties compared to WRC.

Thank god this ones local

[Kudzu]

Paulownia looks interesting, 

 

Yes it does! I have read a little about it and it is something I want to try. Just have not found any around me but it sounds like it might be a good choice. If you do use it by all means lets me (us) know how it works for you.

[Hirilonde]

If you visit the other sections of this forum you will find the Aussie builders are using Paulownia.  I tried searching the forums, but the other threads did not come up.  As I recall, the impact bending and shear strengths were a bit lower than WRC.  I don't know if they are enough to warrant a larger stringer.  If you search on line you can easily find companies willing to sell you trees for your yard here in the US.  I found little about lumber except for this.  I believe it was Ken Potts in the B&B section of the forum who was planning on using it for a project.  He is a US long term forum member, posting mostly in the B&B section, who is now living in Australia.

 

 

[P Douglass (WA)]

If you really can't find adequate wood, or the cost is prohibitive, maybe you should concider one of Jeff's kits which includes the frames out of good baltic birch.

[labrat]

OK Aaron, possibly a bit more good news for you - it sure was for me.

 

I rang Gunnersen timber today to see who their local retailers are because I found 2 types of marine ply on their website and they are Australia wide. They offer hoop pine ply to AS2272 which is top class stuff (better than BS1088) but it retails for $270! There is also a BS1088.

 

They recommended Bunnings so I went there after work and ended up with a sheet of BS1088 hardwood marine ply for $79 (including having it cut in half).  I'm not sure who your local retailer would be but if you ring the Perth branch of Gunnersens they will be able to point you in the right direction.

 

This stuff is probably not as good as the AS2272 but it does look good - 9 plies and very few voids. The advantage of more plies is that even if there are voids they are only small. With the 3 ply stuff you lose a third of the material thickness.

 

This is the cut edge of my BS1088 sheet. This view seems typical.

 

This is the BS1088 stack in the store. You can make out some small edge voids.

 

This is the stack of construction ply in the store - voids galore!

 

Let us know how you get on with both the paulownia and the ply.

[Hirilonde]

 They offer hoop pine ply to AS2272 which is top class stuff (better than BS1088) but it retails for $270!

I don't know about that.  Better is a rather meaningless word without technical data to back it up.  How is it better?  Another advantage to Okoume BS1088 is the weight.  Quality is measured by conformance to requirements.  Weight and price are often part of the requirements.

 

The advantage of more plies is that even if there are voids they are only small. With the 3 ply stuff you lose a third of the material thickness.

There is a lot more advantage than that.  If 3 uniform continuous plys were as strong as 9 then Joubert would not bother to make their ply with 9.  It is an engineered product, and the number and thickness of the plies is part of the design.

 

Before Lloyds stopped inspecting and enforcing their BS 1088 certification there were no voids at all.  Now that BS 1088 is in house inspected it is no longer a certified standard, but one based on the trust of the manufacturer.  But if you can get a supposed BS 1088, with minimal voids and the proper 9 plies for a good price, I would go for it.

[gorn]

Thanks for the info

I will phone them this week, but cant buy anything for another week, broke at the moment lol.

Im actually leaning toward the AS2272 ply, even though its expensive.

Id say I could probably make at least 2 boats from that, and considering I want to do the Stonefly canoe as well, it should be worth it

Im considering making the stringers a bit wider, due to them appearing to be a weaker wood than Western Red Cedar.

We will see

Thanks again

Aaron

[gorn]

I have ordered the hoop pine plywood, AS/NZ 2272 from Mitre Ten, who are an agent for Gunnersons Timber.

It will be here next week.

I will take some pics, and weigh the sheet as well when it gets here.

Just as information for other Aussies

 

Thanks very much to Labrat for your help with local produce, I owe you a beer or six

[labrat]

Glad to be of help - did you find any paulownia locally? I gather from your comment about using thicker stringers that you had settled on using it.

[gorn]

Hi Labrat

I haven't phoned them yet, but will have sometime this week.
I will be using Paulinia/Kiri.

Done a fair bit of reading, and found there to be only 6% average difference in strength compared to WRC.

Given that the kayak will be 25% lighter, I see no reason to go with bigger stringers.

That's my beginners logic anyway

[Kudzu]

I have read up on paulownia and I would use it in a heart beat if I could find it. Sounds like a good choice if you can get it. I am still waiting on it for to come available  around here. 

 

 

Given that the kayak will be 25% lighter, I see no reason to go with bigger stringers.

 

I don't recommend making changes to the designs, especially if it is you first one. I did what I did for a reason. 

[gorn]

Thanks Jeff

I will leave the design as is

[gorn]

Just a point to note for any other Aussies following this.

Highpoint Timbers in Rockingham, has ceased trading, so Paulownia can not be sourced from them.

I'm now in contact with Paulownia Farm Management, who Mill, wholesale, and retail Paulownia.

 

Waiting to hear back on price and availability of size I need.