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bollard or cleat for CS17


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  #1 Joe Antin

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:08 AM

I built the CS17 without a hatch in the bow. I am planning to keep the boat at a dock and need a bollard or cleat on the bow. Presumably i should have through bolted before i put on the deck, but since i didnt i was wondering if anyone has a suggestion. I can use the bow ring but it is a little awkward to get at.

Joe

  #2 wkisting

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:52 PM

On my CS20, I thru-bolted a cleat right in front of the main mast. It's very sturdy since the bolts run through the underside support plank, plus the thickness of the deck, plus a 3/4" thick mahogany board that surrounds my main mast step on the topsides and provides a landing spot for the bow roller and anchor shaft. On the underside, I used fender washers to give it an extra secure hold. You could probably lift the boat up out of the water by the cleat, or else the deck seams would give out before the cleat pulled free.

To thru-bolt it, I drilled and epoxy sealed the holes from above, then had my wife slip down through the forward hatch, wipe away any excess sealant, then slide on each washer, and hold a wrench on each hex-nut while I tightened from above. Since this can be a high-load area, I overdrilled the mounting holes, re-filled them with thickened epoxy, then drilled the correct (smaller) diameter holes. This forms an epoxy bushing so the bolts don't directly contact the surrounding plywood.

The only thing I don't like about this cleat location is that it only barely allows clearance for the anchor shaft on my small (4 lbs.) Fortress danforth anchor. If I were doing it over, I would set it slightly further aft to give a little more clearance behind the bow roller. Can't go much further back, though, or you run into the main mast.

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Wes Kisting
Core Sound #102 "Second Wind"

  #3 Joe Antin

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

I agree in principle but the problem is that you can build the CS17 without a hatch in the bow compartment. Therefore I have no way to through-bolt it. I might be able to put an inspection port in the forward bulkhead, but even then i am not sure I can reach around the mast tube.

joe

  #4 PAR

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:52 PM

Use a cleat on the centerline, but instead of wood screws, use machine screws and bond the threads within thickened epoxy holes. Simply put, mark the cleat mounting holes, then drill the holes at least 30% larger than the threads of the machine screws to be inserted. Wet out the holes with straight epoxy, then fill each hole with thickened epoxy (403, milled fibers and/or wood flour and silica). Butter up the holes with more thickened epoxy and insert the screws, turning them down as you go. The bonded fasteners will hold as well as through bolts and will not let water past the threads, to get at the deck or king plank under it. Log onto westsystem.co and download their free user's guide, which covers fastener bonding and other procedural use. A good trick with bonded fastener holes is, to counter sink the top of the holes, so more epoxy will pool and form a load carrying area under the fastener head or hardware.

  #5 wkisting

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:31 PM

Oh, sorry... I was assuming you had a front hatch. I didn't realize some CS boats are built with a totally sealed front compartment. I'm convinced it's never a good idea to have a sealed airspace like that on a wooden boat. I would definitely install an inspection hatch... not necessarily to facilitate the attachment of a cleat, but so that you can routinely inspect for any water leakage or condensation issues. PAR's idea of threading machine screws into epoxy filled holes is a good one, too. Should offer plenty of strength for routine docking and anchoring, and sounds like something you could pull off without climbing inside the compartment.
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Wes Kisting
Core Sound #102 "Second Wind"

  #6 PeterP

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:25 AM

I have tied off to the mast quite often without any problems. Both anchor and mooring lines. PeterP
Spindrift 10, CS17 River Dancer, CS17 Red Beard, CS20, P28R under construction

  #7 MisterMoon

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:32 AM

On Bandaloop, there is a large inspection hatch in the forward bulkhead that would allow one to go forward to through bolt, albeit with some difficulty.

Not having any access at all to that area is a bad idea.

I hate hate hate that my boat does not have a hatch on the front deck. When it cools off, I plan to refinish and repaint my boat along with adding a hatch in the front deck.
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  #8 Joe Antin

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:45 PM

thanks PAR - i considered that but was not sure it was strong enough. I will check out the West web site.

  #9 hokeyhydro

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 03:15 PM

wood boat = bollard - I think it would look cool . . .

  #10 Hirilonde

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 07:17 PM

bollard n. a single iron or steel post or double vertical steel posts on a pier to which ships mooring lines are secured


I think no matter how you attach it it will sink your boat ;)

I think you mean a bitt

Dave Finnegan

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  #11 Howard

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:17 AM

Then there is the samson post.......and two versions of those. Bolt on metal or the wooden, keel to deck version..........

http://www.duckworks...j/015/index.cfm

To look at the two, the engineering doesn't look the same. One simply bolts on to whatever is below (as do cleats). Those who describe the wooden versions that run through the deck to the keel make them sound like they have to be built strong enough to survive life threatening events on a daily basis.

Clearly the leverage that is exerted on the taller metal samson post is greater than that of a deck cleat, but how much more? Enough to matter?

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  #12 Hirilonde

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:46 AM

samson post n (2) In small boats and pleasure craft, a stout bitt near the bow for use with ground tackle


I never heard a bitt called a samson post, but I guess it can be under certain circumstances.

samson posts n (1) A short mast or spar that supports auxiliary cargo booms


This is the one I am familiar with.

Oh, and to give credit where due the above definitions are from:

The Facts on File Dictionary of Nautical Terms by
Thompson Lenfestey

Clearly the leverage that is exerted on the taller metal samson post is greater than that of a deck cleat, but how much more? Enough to matter?


I would not want one that is tall at all, especially if bolted on. I use a bronze one that is 6" and has a 4 bolt base that is almost that square on the foredeck of my Renegade. That puts the load about 3 " above the deck at most. I feel really secure about my boat at the mooring. I loop the eye splice of the pendant over the bitt then lash it down with a small line spliced to the pendant. This puts the load right at the deck with virtually no leverage. For a displacement hull boat I really like the bitt aka samson post. For a light weight boat like a CS I don't think it is necessary, a good cleat well secured either by through bolting or as Par describes is quite sufficient for towing, ground tackle or dock lines.

Dave Finnegan

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  #13 wkisting

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

I'm with Dave: A bollard/bitt/samson post--or whatever it's called--would be overkill on a CS boat. A cleat works great, has a lower profile, and will be very secure. If you size it right and get a dockline with a loop spliced into one end, you don't even need to tie a hitch or loop back and forth in a figure 8. Mine is a 6" Herreschoff style cleat, which bolts securely with four bolts, but is open in the center (between the "legs"). All you need do is pass the looped end of the dockline through the center, then open the loop and pull it back over the cleat's "horns" and snug it up. No knots or tying involved, no way it can come loose, and yet it can be removed in an instant if, say, you need to free up the cleat to tie off to an anchor line instead. Anything taller/bulkier/heftier would offer no practical advantage, unless you simply prefer it for aesthetic reasons.
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Wes Kisting
Core Sound #102 "Second Wind"

  #14 Joe Antin

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:00 AM

thanks for the discussion and the correction in terms. although i looked up bollard again and it was originally used on ships as well as on shore - Vetus still calls it a bollard. nevertheless i will alter my vocab.

i did ultimately decide that putting the clear before the mast didn't make any sense. Since the king plank extends beyond the forward bulkhead, i can through-bolt it there where it is in reach of the cockpit and send lines forward through chocks at the bow.

Joe

  #15 Howard

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

What does Vetus know.....they only make the thing. Interesting that you can do an images search in google for bollard, samson post and mooring bitt and the same images turn up. Bollards and mooring bitts seem to be on more massive scales, however. Lets see, you call it a tomato, I call it a potato or is it.............? (Hey......there could be a song in that somewhere)!

But as for that cleat (be it mooring, deck, dock or boat), I'd suggest going one or two sizes up from what you might think. I think the cleat on my 17 foot sloop is around 6 inches and it could stand to be bigger, or else have two in tandem. Two lines for anything maxes it out.

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  #16 ricknriver

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:54 AM

Joe, Think you'll like the cleat aft of the mast with chocks forward. Changed mine on BRS15 & it made room for bow light. Much easier to handle lines too. Just be sure the cleat and chocks align so mooring lines don't foul on any running rigging about the main. R

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  #17 PAR

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:45 PM

A Samson post or bollard is for hard work, either pulling or pushing. None of the CS series can do hard work, nor have the mass to require such a post. A well mounted deck cleat will easily be able to hoist the whole boat, clean out of the water, which is more then strong enough to preform the tasks it might need to in normal or sever use.

  #18 ecgossett

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:50 PM

I recently read an article about anchoring in Small Craft Adviser using 300 ft of rope through some blocks in a big circle to give 150ft of line to shore.. How is this set up, has anyone done this successfully?
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  #19 cprinos

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:10 AM

WoodenBoat #171 had a small article on this diagramming three variations (http://www.woodenboa...denboat_151-180)

It's kind of like rigging a clothes line with the boat in the middle where one end is a block at shore; the other end is a block that is either an anchored block, a block attached to a mooring buoy (for more bottom clearance), or a block attached to another anchored boat.

See also an example at http://gisamateur.bl...?q=Anchor video

And the related thread: http://forum.woodenb...p-of-the-season

  #20 Tom Lathrop

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:19 PM

Almost all of my recent boats have samson posts in the bow and I have learned to appreciate them more than cleats. I do use a cross pin when there are no hause holes which makes them a cleat of sorts, I guess. On larger boats, I use an anchor well with a samson post and hause holes to pass the mooring lines through. Strong as all get out and never catches on anything I don't want it too. I mount the aft cleats inside the deck and also have hause holes there. No exposed cleats anwhere. You might think I don't like exposed cleats on small boats and you would be right. Long history of cleats catching hold of various stuff and causing everything from embarassment to disaster. You can buy neat but expensive recessed cleats which are nice buy my method is almost free.




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