skrufy Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Hello All- Hopefully my plans for Vardo and Tangerine, and the other supplies, will arrive today. A quick search of the Forum pages had only one topic on Marine grade Plywood, unless I just missed others- so sorry if this has been covered before. My daughter just got home with 2 sheets of plywood ordered/purchased from my local building supply store. The nearest Lowes/Agent Orange stores are about 85 miles away, so my resources are pretty limited out here in the mountain boonies of eastern Az. I am not a happy camper with what I received for about $47 per sheet. Should there not be quality and material stamps on this plywood? I have no idea what I have. Both sides are rough, with several gaps filled with a white filler or glue, as well as numerous "footballs" or plugs. One sheet was obviously a top sheet of a plywood stack, with weathering cracks and dirt imbedded. When I ordered, they said that all "marine grade" plywoods must meet BS 1088 when they called their supplier, who might be down in the Phoenix area. It is 5 ply. Obviously, going to the expense/time of making your own boat, we want to do it right the first time, to look great, etc. Am I being too picky here? Should I just sand out the dirt, suck it up, and press on? thanks for all the expertice! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Sounds like exterior grade ply....It's a shame you can't get Baltic birch...My price was $57. for a 4x8 of 1/2'' and $25. for a 5x5 of 3/8...the 3/8 works good for the kayak frames... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 That doesn't sound like good plywood to me. It's hard to find decent plywood anywhere but for that price I would not accept it. ALSO, bad news. I just realized I left out the assembly manual from you order! I will get in in the mail tomorrow!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryg Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 I ordered my marine grade ply as a special order from my local big box store. Prices in Canada may be higher than in the US, but I paid over $100 for my single sheet. Well worth it imo, though I had to be careful cutting out the bottom of the notches, since it had a tendency to chip. I agree that the stuff you have sounds like exterior grade. Based on the little I know, I wouldn't use it. Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 If you can find Baltic Birch use that. It is FAR superior to any marine ply I have been able to get. There is some really good marine ply out there but is hard to find and I think most of it is actually imported. Try looking for the commercial supplier, skip the hardware stores and lumber yards. They might have true baltic birch. Some good cabinet shops use it. TRUE Baltic Birch is imported from Russia and only comes in 5' square sheets. That is some of the sweetest plywood I have used. I LOVE IT. Might take some hunting but I am sure someone has it within driving distance. Just don't let them convince you it comes in 4 x 8 sheets! It doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike John Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Jeff's book is here which is much like the manual he sends but it does not have the latest strongback: http://www.amazon.com/Fuselage-Frame-Boats-building-kayaks/dp/0615495567/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337394047&sr=8-1-fkmr0 There is a kindle edition so you can starting reading today. It is not expensive and I found the online version handy in searching for a particular words like floor etc. MIke John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Part of it is your fault and part of it is there's. It's your fault for sending someone to accept a product, they had no clue about, what to look for, what to look out for, etc. You never send an plumber to check on a drywall job. It's there fault if they tried to pass off something less the a BS 1088 sheet on someone, but then again, they may have sold you a marine rated sheet, just not to the BS 1088 standard. At $47 bucks a sheet, you should have known it wasn't going to be a BS 1088 product. 1/4" Hydrotech is about that price, but I'm not sure what thickness you where after. 1/2" Hydrotech is in the $85 range, 3/8" about $65. Hydrotech is the cheapest BS 1088 sheet you can get. It's meranti and good working stuff, though 20% heavier the Okoume. What you likely have is a BC, APA marine grade sheet of Douglas fir (often referred to as XL marine). It's available with a AA grading, but you usually have to pay for this. When looking for plywood, two things are necessary, first is you have to know what you're looking at when it arrives, so you can say yes or no and second, they have to actually know what you want. Most big box stores have never heard of a BS 1088 grade sheet and just might think any 'ol marine grade is marine grade. Call them up and tell them you're bringing it back and don't let them hook you for a restocking charge. Insist they are the ones that said they'd order a BS 1088 sheet, which will usually be stamped on the sheet, if it doesn't have a PSA label. Giving your daughter pallet strap marked sheets, just proves they where looking to get one past you (her), knowing she wouldn't have a clue about the damaged sheet. They know darn well that pallet strap damaged sheet, will be the last sheet they sell from a whole stack of sheets and they where happy to get rid of it. Make them feel guilty enough to give you your money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skrufy Posted May 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Well- where to start? First of all, not to worry Jeff- when the instruction manual get's here- it gets here. I have already read your book cover to cover, and several parts twice. I am comfortable with the task ahead, and so far, it doesn't look like I've found an excuse to buy some new tools- hey wait- there's that hot knife.... ;-) As my logo says at the top- I'm a 'newbie' with a total of 4 posts. I joined this Forum a little while ago after deciding it was a lot cheaper to build a wooden boat than an airplane. Having been around Fighter, Corporate, and Airline aviation for -gasp/cough!! 40 years, the kayak/canoe I've always wanted to do has been calling....... For those of you who are real sporting, the most complete plans/research available on the WW1 Fighter aircraft for your full scale reproduction is for the German Fokker Tri-Plane. Fokker, a Dutch guy, used a plywood type of beambox as the main structural element in each wing, but the glues were bad back then...... they are a handful- the rudder is too small. I am a contributor to several other Forums- Porsches and weapons. The beauty of these Forums is the corporate knowledge so easily and willingly shared, especially to us new folks. The only stupid questions are the one you don't ask, and if you get slammed for asking it or for making a mistake, the other guy doesn't understand the concept. All the "total know-it alls" I ever knew in the Fighter business are all dead, and when they were alive, the last guys you wanted to fly with and depend on. The all took a perfectly good jet into the ground with them..... Back on topic. The plywood. The local building supply owner is an aquaintance of mine. He was PO'd that they sent a plywood cover sheet. He will take the two sheets back. His supplier told him that marine plywood was marine plywood, all made to the same spec. From all of your generous responses, that obviously is not the case here. I did tell him I needed BS 1088 stuff for a boat, having read that term either in Jeff's book, or in these Forums. I had no clue as to what BS 1088 is, and have never heard of Hydrotech, meranti, or okoume- or what the cost might be for those materials. The cost is not really a factor when you think about it- you are only worried about the price once, after that you want performance and durability. A local friend here is a retired cabinet maker/shop owner. I will ask him about Birch, and who his suppliers are- he might/probably has some laying around. As for the pick up of the plywood, nearly everything for us is a 27-28 mile drive to the next larger town. We try and plan our trips for groceries and fuel. My daughter happened to be over there, so I asked her to pick them up. I didn't expect her to grade the wood. There are no markings on the face of the sheets, only some very faint numbers on the 4ft edges of the better board- nothing that says the grade or wood type. My plywood learning curve is rising exponentially. Thank you for that. The Stringers: I'm going to use Blue Spruce- available locally. I will be working with a friend this next week cleaning and thinning 27 acres of forest- losts of chainsaw time. He owns a sawmill, and several of his sons are loggers. I've asked him for 16 footers- he'll probably give me 20s. We do have a cedar variety here- "Shaggy Bark" the local name, but it doesn't get large enough to justify harvesting it.... Jeff- can I cut all the pieces for Tangerine and Vardo out of one 4x8 sheet? maybe I only need one sheet?..... I will keep everyone posted on the Hunt for Good stuff..... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Jeff- can I cut all the pieces for Tangerine and Vardo out of one 4x8 sheet? maybe I only need one sheet?..... If your going to build a laminated coaming, MAYBE. You can usually get the frames out of half a sheet but it would be close. If you use the plywood coaming, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 BS 1008 is a British Standard certification number. Some of the ply I use is also stamped with a LLoyd's certification number. As to prices, just for reference, I just bought two sheets of 4mm (BS 1008) Okume for $120. I refuse to even consider US made plywood (fir) for ANY boat job anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Just to top off what Paul and Charlie have mentioned I will say that plywood, it's construction, choices of woods and adhesives, the numbers and orientations of plys and everything else that goes into it could fill a college course, and that would just be to understand about the stuff. Not only is fir a poor choice for marine plywood, but the ply schedule is no more structural than construction sheathing. 1/2" fir plywood has 5 plys, BS 1088 requires 9. US marine plywood really is just construction sheathing with treated wood. Its not most good marine ply is imported Jeff, it is all good marine ply as Charlie has eluded to. There is no Meranti or Okoume BS 1088 marine ply made in the USA. The reason why Baltic Birch ply works for kayaks is that it uses almost twice as many plys as construction sheathing and each one is continuous, there are virtually no voids. It is not BS 1088, but it is made to a high standard with 9 plys. It is a very strong plywood. It would not survive in a boat that is left wet a lot, but one can get by using it in a kayak that is dried out after each use and stored dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skrufy Posted May 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Jeff- My package of plans for Vardo and Tangerine, along with the extra sinew, polyester skin material, etc arrived today- or at least I am pretty sure it all did. The box looks like it somewhat survived WW3, with letters from the US Post Office saying sometimes their machines are a little over zealous and rough, along with probably 200 feet of tape holding it all together. The box had burst open it looks like. I will send you a private email to verify the shipment. I think we're ok. Plywood- my education has been skyrocketing now that the rest of you have told me what to look for. I will educate my local building supplier to see what he can come up with. We don't have many boat building suppliers here in Arizona, even though we, according to the tourist stuff, have the highest boat population per capita in the country. There is an exotic wood/plywood supplier in Phoenix and Flagstaf that may be my best bet. Will keep everyone informed. As Ted has asked above, Baltic Birch, or similar 7 or 9 ply cabinet grade plywood would be ok to use? Are the glues waterproof? I plan on using Tung Oil, 2-3 coats, to finish the frame. So as long as it's well coated and sealed, the cabinet grade stuff should be ok? The supplier in Phoenix www.spellmanhardwoods.com has Red Birch plywood listed. Will talk to them the first of the week...... I happen to have a gallon of Watco Danish Oil Finish that a friend gave me. Has anybody used this? I have never opened it, and really don't know anything about it.... Ok- I will post this next to the whole Forum, but you heard it here first: Which to build as a first time newbie: Vardo or Tangerine? I'm thinkin' Vardo, but...? Thanks again for all the help. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 As Ted has asked above, Baltic Birch, or similar 7 or 9 ply cabinet grade plywood would be ok to use? Baltic Birch is totally different than cabinet grade birch. They are no where near the same quality. I have no idea if it is waterproof or not but I would hold out for true Baltic Birch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 Tim, I looked at Spellman's Hardwoods Complete Products List (the PDF file) on their internet site and they list the Baltic Birch we are talking about under "Imported Plywoods". I'd be hesitant to use the Watco Danish Oil only because my can of Watco stain says "not recommended for exterior use" maybe their oil is different than the stain. And for me, I would build the Vardo first. I just thinKing, less parts to worry about getting all lashed together and alined properly. Coarse you have fresh help on the Tangerine, if you have been following Mike John's build of his Tangerine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted May 20, 2012 Report Share Posted May 20, 2012 I have said this before..I have unfinished test pcs. of baltic birch out side attached to a fence post for a few yrs. now and has not delaminated...and soaked a pc. in water for a long time and no delamination.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skrufy Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hello All- I returned the two 4x8 sheets of "marine Plywood" to my local lumber yard today- full refund even though it was a special order. The replacment came in today for the pallet damaged top sheet of plywood mentioned above. I can get 5x5 Baltic Birch from Spellman's Hardwood in Flagstaf, Az under their 'imported' Plywoods section for $35 per 5x5 sheet, plus tax. Does that sound about then right pricing? Shipping will be an extra $15 total, as they have a truck that runs down weekly to a city about 80 miles away from here. For both Vardo and Tangerine, I was thinking of ordering 4 sheeets? Is that enough for both boats? Please advise and thanks to all- Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Re: true Baltic Birch plywood: Almost all of the info about it on the internet indicates that it is interior glue. Is that what most people are using or is there an exterior version? Somehow I missed your question. I guess it has been answered more or less but, no, as far as I know there is not exterior grade. But you see it used all the time for outdoor projects and it appears to be more than adequate for our purposes. I can get 5x5 Baltic Birch from Spellman's Hardwood in Flagstaf, Az under their 'imported' Plywoods section for $35 per 5x5 sheet, plus tax. Does that sound about then right pricing? I think I pay more than $35 a sheet for 12mm thick. Sounds like a good price to me. For both Vardo and Tangerine, I was thinking of ordering 4 sheeets? Is that enough for both boats? Plenty. I think you could get it all out of 2 sheets but since you have to order it I would get at least 3. Just depends on how good are you at puzzles. Arrange the parts on the plywood so you have the least waste. I love the stuff so I pick up 10 sheets or so at a time and keep it in the shop. Of course I never know when I will have someone wanting a kit either. So I want to have it sitting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Tim, that sounds like the right plywood. I paid $35 a sheet when I bought it. Them I drove 220 miles round trip to pick it up. Cost me more than your $15 shipping. I'd order 3 sheets like the man says. You always find use for it. It is a pleasure to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I don't think any plywood is made without a waterproof glue. So any plywood that is oiled or better can handle getting wet even though it is not designed for the purpose. Baltic Birch was never really intended for building kayaks. It is just that it is made so well that if treated it works out very well for a kayak that is dried out between uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodman Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Here is a pc. of 1/2'' Baltic birch screwed to a fence post for , I don't know 4 yrs. ore more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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