Questions About Core Sound Sail/Rigging Configurations

[Lorne]

I recently received the Core Sound 15/17 photo CD. People appear to be attaching the sails to the masts by way of sleeves, lacing and sail tracks. Additionally, there seem to be a wide variety of rigging arrangements. I'm interested in the arrangement which has the fewest number of lines and blocks, but which still will allow modest reefing. If I build a CS 17, I'll use a low-profile commercial hatch cover instead of the wooden one, and I'll install a pair of grab rails to make it easy to slide over the foredeck and also to act as knee braces. I'd like to avoid, as far as reasonable and possible, running the main halyards back into the cockpit or along the side decks.

Mr. Gordy Hill has used sail sleeves on his boat, yet he still can reef by wrapping the sail on the mast. Is it possible to do the same thing with the laced sails? Any information or guidance would be helpful.

[wkisting]

If the top priority is to have the fewest possible lines and reefing is a fairly rare need, then sleeves are probably the way to go. You're correct that you wrap the sails to reef, and something similar would be possible with laced sails also, but if you're going to wrap around the mast to reef, I would prefer sleeves over laces for simplicity's sake.

Our CS20 has sails on tracks, which I've found to be very user friendly. It's true there are more lines, but if I ever had to reef while out on the water, I would much rather reef the main by lowering the sail on tracks than by wrapping it around the mast and trying to reattach the forward end of the snotter to a sewn in attachment point as the sleeves seem to require. The mizzen probably wouldn't be bad with sleeves, but that main would be tricky to do in choppy conditions while standing on the foredeck. Also, the control lines my setup requires (three to the main, three on the mizzen) allow a bit more control over the sail than a simple sleeved sail, though I don't know that it's a huge difference in performance.

Just for full disclosure: I haven't actually used sleeved sails myself, but I've listened to what others have said about them over the years. My sense is that the few extra lines for a full sail track setup are worth it.

[Gordy Hill]

I had sleeve luffs on my CS17 and to reef I would wrap the main tightly around it's mast and secure it with bungees, which, by the way, is how it was stored. Then the mizzen was moved to the center mast step. Usually I would reef long after it was advisable, and, even then, flying in the face of reason, I would pick up the whole mizzen, mast,etc and reset it. I'm sure it looked like some rodeo event. Rigged this way the boat sailed wonderfully all the way from a full breeze up to "Damn, it's windy!" A more thoughtful sailor would pick a better and safer time and place to reef. Keep in mind the boat can be sailed in really rough conditions fully rigged just by spilling wind during the bigger puffs.

I think if I were off Ft Myers in four foot seas in the middle of the night I'd prefer sail tracks. For the other 99.4% of the time I think I'd stay with the sleeve luff for the CS17 and anything smaller. As I mentioned, the sails remain on the masts rolled up neatly. This allows a very useful window to be in the main and it won't be wrinkled up when stowed. Rigging and de-rigging is much quicker. When at anchor, the sails are totally out of the way. My main reason for liking sleeve luffs is the aerodynamics. A clean leading edge on an airfoil is very very very important. On some airplane wings they want part of the wing to stall sooner than the rest to give the pilot warning that he is approaching a stall. They add a stall strip on part of the wing.The stall strip looks for all the world like a section of halyard. Laced sails would give up the airfoil advantage for no reason.

[PAR]

There's no difference in the number of lines, in respect to luff attachment types. You can't reef a sock luff sail, you can only furl it, because the snotter gets fouled as you wrap the sail. With laces or a sail track, you can reef, which for most eliminates the bronco ride, of moving a fully rigged mizzen to the third mast step location, in building winds.

Don't get me wrong, I like sock luff designs, but not on boats the size of a CS-17, where the ability to carry on, with multiple reefs is very possible and desirable.

[Doug Cameron]

The sail tack also allows full battens and roach. And with the reefing available on a track sail, there is never the need for the rodeo event of moving the mizzen to the forward position. The lines, led aft, are no problem, so that the only reason to go forward in worsening conditions off Ft. Myers is to move the tack point and to tie in the forward tie on the foot. On our 20 with two people, it is a quick maneuver.

[Hirilonde]

The sail tack also allows full battens and roach.

I use a luff sleeve and battens and roach on my Spindrift, would full battens distort the luff with a luff sleeve?. But even so, my Spindrift which has a shortened luff sleeve and a regular boom which facilitates conventional slab reefing (1 reef point only) I wish I had a track some times. Not sure this has any significance to a CS though, you guys seem to insist on sprits over conventional booms. I am sure that on a bigger boat I would insist on track There are a lot of advantages to a sail track. Just being able to lower the sails at the dock or when tied up off the stern of my Renegade would be most convenient. I can't accept a no batten sail, so furling around the mast is out of the question. You can rig your boat but leave the sails off to bend later with a track. And even though there are other ways to reef, I don't think any is more efficient, simple to accomplish on the water, safe, etc. than rigged slab reefing on a mast with tracks. Except maybe switching to a conventional boom would make it even easier

[JeffM]

It is certainly possible to reef a sleeve luff sail by wrapping it around the mast--I do so on my CS20. You have to slack and detach the snotter from the mast to do it, of course, and figuring out what to do with it in the meantime when you only have two hands is a problem. (I finally figured out to clip it to the reef loop and just let it flop around as I rotated the mast.) The big problem I've found with reefing around the masts is that sail shape suffers (bagging as the camber accumulates in the rolling), so that I can't sail higher than a close reach. I prefer to anticipate windy conditions on the trailer or at anchor, and move masts ahead of time to sail on mizzen alone. Moving masts is very hairyin the wind and waves unless you have a pivoting mast stepper that acts as a sort of tabernacle. When I move masts, I also prefer to reduce windage by taking the main down entirely and carrying it on the side deck. After reading the experiences of the majority who use sail tracks, I probably would go that route if I had it to do over.

[Ken_Potts]

My last boat was a CS17 with sleeve luffs and it was a blast to sail. The only problem I ever had with sleeve luffs was moving the mast to reef. It's difficult to move the mizzen while on the water and in a stiff breeze. I almost always waited too long to reef so I've moved the mizzen mast into the middle step in wind and waves quite a few times. Once the main was furled and the mizzen was set in the middle step the boat was a joy to sail in lots of wind. While it was difficult and scary to reef that way, the trade off was in all of the other days I sailed. I sailed in all kinds of weather so I had plenty of fair-weather days. On those days it was pure joy to be able to park my truck at the ramp, rig the boat, and get back in the truck to drop the boat in the water 11 minutes later (the sails were rolled up on the masts for storage).

I didn't miss having battens because I also had a mizzen staysail. That sail was a lot of fun when the winds were light. If I really felt the need to have a lot of roach on the sail (while chasing Dawn Patrol, for instance) I could have used vertical battens and still been able to stow the sails rolled up on the masts.

Now that I've sung the praises of luff sleeves I should mention that my next B and B boat (EC22) will have sail tracks because I plan to sail it in a place where the wind is very predictable. Light every morning and howling every afternoon. I'll probably need to reef on almost every outing so the convenience of the 11-minute rig will pale in comparison to reefing once the "Fremantle Doctor" has arrived.

[Gordy Hill]

Y'all are absolutely right! It IS easier to reef with a sail track. However, as Ken pointed out, there's a trade-off. I've thought long and hard about this because I love the advantages to a sleeve luff. I think I've come up with a nearly brilliant option. On the sleeve luff there's an opening in the sleeve to give access to the snotter atachment. I prefer a D ring lashed to the mast. Now, stay with me here because this is a new idea for me and it may have a glaring complication that I've missed.

For the bottom 2-3 feet of the luff, the sail, instead of a sleeve, is attached to hoops. There is a halyard, internal of course, that allows the sail to be lowered on the mast. Now the only complication I can see is that the snotter will have to be unsnapped from the D ring so the sail can be slid down exposing a new opening in the sail and the snotter re-attached.

I don't see a way to avoid a trip to the fordeck which, by the way, is not that uncommon on a sail boat. It does seem, however, to be a bit more elegant than the Mizzen Mast Rodeo.

[Randy Jones]

Lorne,

I'd like to comment on your original question. I've got a CS-17 with laced sails and no battons. My sails are reefed to the foot in a similar method to those with sail track. The reefing process takes a few minutes longer relative to sail track but it is not a big deal. Reefing by rolling sail around the mast appears possible with lacing but it you would have to remove the snotter for reefing and then reinstall it over the rolled up sail. I think reefing to the foot is probalby easier.

As pointed out by others, the lack of battons makes it really easy to roll sail and boom around the mast for easy storage. I would no doubt loose a race against a CS17 with battoned sails, but since I've never even seen another CS17 I don't worry about that.

[JeffM]

Gordy, I like your idea. I'm trying to remember the name of the Aussie CS20 sailor who adventured all over the place and eventually put a zipper in the lower part of his luff for just this purpose.

[Peter HK]

I'm trying to remember the name of the Aussie CS20 sailor who adventured all over the place and eventually put a zipper in the lower part of his luff for just this purpose.

That was Rob Blackburn. I'm not sure what he ended up doing, but he came to see me here in Brisbane about a year ago. He was wondering about roller furling on a carbon main mast or changing to a sloop rig. He wanted to see how I had arranged reefing with tracks and reefing lines.

Maybe he'll reply and let us know.

Cheers

Peter HK

[Ray Frechette Jr]

What do you save for lines on a Luff sleeve rig? 2 Halyards???

You still have snotters and downhauls don't you?? And you still have sheets.

Not seeing any great advantage to eliminating 2 hayards myself.