sitearch Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Okay, so I am crazy. Who else builds their own boats? Right? But isn't that the fun of building and sailing a small boat? I love to tinker with it....maybe I just need to build another boat. You all know me as the crazy who put the cuddy on my CS and then put the sugar scoop on her. Then I drug you all through my plan to just sail under one sail in the third step. Which by the way is just wonderful. Then I festered you with how to lift my mast in place using a step assist. That has all worked just great and I am very pleased and all of this without bothering Graham. He already thinks I am nuts. So now I have come up with something else to inflict you all with. I think it would be fun to play around with a small self tacking jib with a furler that I can operate from the cockpit. See the attached photo of what I propose to build. I am also going to play around with mounting my sprit like you see in the photo and ordering a new sail shaped like in the picture so it reduce even more any obstruction in the cockpit. I don't really like the snotter connection to the sprit anyway. Anyway, any comments from you old salts? And yes I am aware of the center of effort and the center of lateral resistance. I think I can acheive a balanced rig. The self tacking jib will be just as easy as the self tacking main. Looks pretty easy from the photo. Just get a small jib with a furler and mount it to a small sprit. Seems pretty easy to a simpleton...like me. Bob First Attempt Alaska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitearch Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Forgot to add a picture of my CS....so you can see what I am talking in the previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Sounds fine to me, except that as I recall you said the boat is pretty well balanced as is... So a small jib--even if small--might be far enough forward to upset that balance. I really don't know, but that's one concern I would have. Otherwise, if it is on a furler, I don't think it would add much complexity and, if the boat still balances well, it might give a bit better performance. Visually, I think it would look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitearch Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Thanks Wes. You are wonderful to help with great advice. I really appreciate it. At least I know that I am not totally crazy. I saw how these guys have their sprit attached to the mast and I thought how cool. Why doesn't Graham have ours that way? Seems pretty easy to do and I agree that the little jib looks kind of cool. The best part is that it is self tacking. The little furler on the jib is pretty neat too. I will be able to adjust from the cockpit without too much problem. Like I mentioned before though I have been really impressed with the super performance of my boat under one sail. It was very impressive and really easy to handle single handed. This is a project for next Spring so I will let you know how it comes out. I will send you a picture as well. Thanks again for the thoughtful advice. It is always nice to hear from you. Have a great winter. Bob I added a couple more pictures of what the little jib rig I want to add. Take a look at the attachments. the foreward end is attached to something on the bow and then the aft portion is free swinging with the sheets for the jib coming to the end through some kind of clamp I guess. I will need to play with this. I will also need to attach some kind of stayline to the forward part of the mast but that shouldn't be too big a deal. It all sounds kind of fun to me. See ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnadi Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 I've seen "jib boom" a few ways: Front attachment: can be attached to the deck just behind the jib tack (google "Hoyt Boom") or clamped to the front stay (probably not possible with a furler) Clew attachment: you can simply tie it off at the boom (like a sloop mainsail) or if you want to bring it to the cockpit you need to go forward to the pivot of the jib boom. Here is an overkill diagram but explanatory: http://www.harken.com/rigtips/SelfTackJibsStaysails.php Also here is one showing the lines (but the sail is furled) http://www.tulane.edu/%7Edarwin/Comus/Comus%20jib-boom2.jpg and a discussion of it: http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=19580 (I wanted to do this to my Catalina 25, so I had stuff saved) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnadi Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Plus you'll have to get Graham's opinion on attaching a jib to an unstayed mast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Hi Bob, These are fun boats, aren't they? I've found that the rig as-drawn works nicely up to about 20 knots of wind before reefing and when the winds are light enough that I need to add sail, the mizzen staysail is a wonderful thing (a beautiful thing). My rule of thumb for flying the staysail is that my speed will double once I've got it set and trimmed. It's also nice that it sets between the masts so the rig is still balanced really well even though the boat has lots more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_stewart Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Bob, Rest assured we love following your innovations. The whole point of building your own boat is that you can customize it and re-customize it. That's a lovely CS17+3 boat you've got there. I like it. Do you prefer the single-sail rig because it is easier to manage when you sail alone? How do you heave to? Jib: I notice the yawl rig in the photos you attached has a stayed main mast. Stayed mast: This year on our CS20 Dawn Patrol we added an asymmetric spinnaker and removable bowsprit just in time for the Everglades Challenge adventure race. It tacks like a jib. We added tension-able backstays (dyneema single braid) that can, via blocks and nylon line, be cleated tight or released slack. We tension just the windward backstay. When not using the spinnaker, these backstays stay slack so that the range of rotation of the mainsail is not impeded. In the photo below the red lines are bungee cords that keep the backstays close to the mast when they are slack. ( BTW, the photo is on Florida Bay, which is an amazing place. The water was glass but the wind was blowing at 10 knots and we were flying downwind over a sea of grass just 1-2 feet below the clear surface. Beautiful! ) (Also BTW, during the EC the spinnaker gave use several extra knots of speed on several long runs; was definitely worthwhile. In regard to balance, the spinnaker is more of a downwind thing so balance was less of an issue. We also experimented during the EC with using the stays'l as a jib when reaching --and that worked ok.) I agree with Ken; the stays'l is a good thing! But......... (and forgive my cat-ketch blasphemy) ....you seem to be headed in a very different direction --toward converting to a yawl rig (or possibly a ketch rig) with a permanently stayed main mast. You probably could do that! The small mizzen sail behind the transom would be self-tending (you can leave it up all the time). You can reef down to just jib and mizzen. Check out logofspartina.blogspot.com. --Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffM Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Bob, I constantly fiddle with my cs20, also, so that it's hardly recognizable. I love asking, "what if," and then testing ideas. Just listing changes large and small would fill a post. One thing i have slowly learned is the cost of complexity: before I do something new, I ask: how much and how often will it help, how much will it be in the way when I don't want it, and how long will it take to rig and unrig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnadi Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 An Aerorig? (sorry, the I got bit by the fidilitis) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitearch Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thanks you guys for the fun thoughts. I have her put away for the winter but I have done the calculations for the small self-tacking jib on my boat. Take a look. I don't think I will need to stay the main mast because I have the mast deeply stepped in the cuddy and supported in the middle as well. I will have the jib on a small furler which I will be able to shorten up quickly. I don't want the yawl mizzen. It isn't that I don't like the ketch rig but I really love to sail her solo with just the one mast/sail in complete ease and fun (and safety when a big blow comes along up here). The small jib will give me about 22 sf more sail when I want or need it. But I have been really surprises at how well and fast she sails with just the one sail stepped in the middle step. I think in many ways she is just about as fast as when I use both mast--maybe because I push her limits more... . Thanks again. I love this stuff. How crazy huh? Next year I will install the step assist to help get the main up easier and will report on how the small jib works for me. Happy wintering to you all. Bob CS #199 In Alaska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitearch Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Oh, forgot to thank Nadi for the great picture links. Yes that is what I am talking about. Cool, huh!. Thanks. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 That drawing looks good to my eye. I don't know about actual sail balance, but visually, it looks more balanced with the added jib. If it throws off the balance, you could always extend the sprit and have a larger mainsail cut to shift the CE further aft again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnadi Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Just keep in mind that if your COE is in front of your COLR, you will have some degree of lee helm (i.e. if you get overpowered boat will head downwind instead of upwind). I personally like weather helm so the boat stalls if I lose control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitearch Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Wes and Nadi, Yes to be sure. It is generally good practice to design the COE to lead the center of lateral resistance by about 10% of the LWL. And Wes you are right that I can increase the main if I need to bring the COE abit aft if I am getting too much of a lee helm, but the jib will be a quick and easy way to add additional sail. It will be fun trying in any case. I think the sail area for the CS per Graham's design is 117 sf. This would bring my sail area to around 94 to 98 sf. As you can see from my calculations I have the COE leading the COLR by just about just about 10%. I intend to shape up the main sail abit to bring it up out of the cockpit area. Thanks again for all the fun comments. You are all the best. Have a good winter--we are huddling together in 15 degree weather now with the temperature gauge dropping. Looking forward to Springtime. Bob CS #199 Alaska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Micawber Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 I sailed my CS 15 with a square Spritsail sloop rig for the first year or so after building the boat. The main was 86 sq ft and the jib was 21 sq ft. I liked the rig because I could set the jib flying without worrying about stays or shrouds. The main and jib worked very well from the reefing mast step position and the combined COE was nearly identical to the specified cat-ketch rig. First reef was lowering the jib. The boat sailed very well under main alone. The main reefed to 62 sq ft. I only did that once and sailed in 25-30mph winds. The boat flew, the spray flew, and it was a heck of a lot of fun. This year, I sailed with the rig spec'd for the boat. I must say that it is one of the easiest rigs I have ever used! I do not have reef points in the sail and will reef by using the third mast step. I do miss the spritsail sloop rig because it gives a slightly different sailing experience. I'm tempted to try a balanced lug sail of 105 sq ft or so and sail the boat cat rigged. While I enjoy the cat-ketch, I've got more boat jewelry to make her go than you can shake a stick at and I'm not a fan of all the clutter. I am attracted by the simplicity of the single sail, in this case, the balanced lug. For the 15, I have also thought that retrofitting to a dagger board would give more room in the boat to loll around in. I think that for the area I sail in such a thing would work well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftcoastlarry Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 So - you modified a cat ketch to a cat boat and am now considering converting to a sloop. Did you notice (and consider) the yawl rig in the photos - might help with potential weather helm issues. Oh...then you're back to two masts. I've always enjoyed Graham's tack toward simplicity, so if you're really looking to rock and reef why not explore Gerry Hoyt's Offset rig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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