Jump to content

Sailing a CS 17 or Lapwing 16?


Neil Brander

Recommended Posts

I have a home in Nova Scotia - right on the water. There are a lot of islands around me and also open ocean. There are also a lot of rocks and fairly tight and shallow places to get through.

so I need a nimple boat, that heads fairly well into the wind, and can draw very little water when necessary. I've done a rather exhaustive internet search and the Core Sound 17 and Lapwing 16 seem to come up as winners.

But what most articles cover is the construction of the boats, and do not give an exhaustive account of how they sail. So that is what I'm asking - who do these boats sail? How close to the wind can you sail them? Do the rigs need to be modified in any way? And any other information you can supply would be greatly apppreciated.

Thanks,

Neil

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I don't know your waters but from what you have said about rocks and very shallow conditions, of these two boats I would go with the CS. My reason is the basic construction method. The CS will be very easy to glass and protect the bottom and chines. The lapwing as beautiful as she is, is lap built. I built a Penobscot 14 and the edges of the laps are nearly impossable to protect from being scraped and dented. Trying to glass the planks would be very difficult.

Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom Lathrop races his Lapwing, so he'll give the best advice re: performance.

But, as a Lapwing sailor, I give the CS17 an edge on most comparisons. 10% more waterline, 15% more sail area and a much easier build. I raced against a CS17 earlier this year in a 2 1/2 hour race and the CS17 got there ten minutes before me. So, similar performance with a slight edge to that slick CS hull.

But, statistically speaking, the Lapwing is 40.3% more beautiful, so keep that in mind. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scott - thanks for the info on the pro's of the CS 17 hard chined body in the waters I will be sailing in. Frankly, I would have thoght a lapstrake boat would be stronger than a stictch and glue model. You live and learn!

And John - thanks for the info on the speed of these two boars.

I was out demo-ing a bettle cat like boat and trying to go through a narrow channel and the boat wouldn't head up into the wind enough to make way. All we did is go back and forth until I finally suggested mounting the motor and powering out of the situation.

So I'm particularlly curious how far you can point up with these baots - 60 degrees of the wind or 45 or even less?

Thanks,

Neil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I once went to the trouble of attempting to plot a polar diagram on my CS17. This was only a single set of measurements on a day with a steady 6-8 knots of breeze and even the slight variations with gusts/lulls made the curve a bit uneven. An accurate polar diagram would need many more data points to be very reliable. Nevertheless the results were interesting. The optimal VMG to windward was 50 degrees...I could point higher but speed dropped off; sailing lower gained speed but not enough to make up for the extra distance.

HTH

Cheers

Peter HK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The best article is on B&B's website, but after having sailed many many boats it's all similar, trim a sail in or out, etc. Some boats tack easy, others (Hobie 16) don't. It all comes down to preference, and what you are looking for.

I was looking for the most boat for the money, which meant building one. I needed one that was safe for the kids (Hobie Cats are not), i.e. won't capsize easily, and can get back in with no wind. I didn't want to own another boat that needed a marina or moored out, it gets expensive between maintenance, dock fees or dingy trips. The boat needed to be easy enough that my kids could sail it. The CS17 requires nothing complicated when tacking which makes it easy for kids.

I enjoyed staying in the cabin on my C&C 25 so much, and then camping on the Hobie Tramp on coastal island that I wanted something we could sleep on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few weeks ago my ten year old son and I took our CS17 gunkholing near the mouth of the Connecticut River. It was 15 knots, gusting to 20 at odd intervals. With one reef in, we beat upwind on the flood into 18 inch deep, twisting and turning channels no more than a dozen yards wide. We must have tacked a hundred times in two hours. We just stayed sitting on the sole, pushing the helm over whenever the reeds and rushes got close, rarely even touching the sheets. The whole time we talked about egrets, baseball, and the meaning of life. This boat just kept on making headway, like a good horse that knows its way home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scott Dufour makes a good point. Both boats tack well and accelerate out of the tack well so that short tacking is easy.

I have had 3 other sailboats. My parents have a camp on a lake with a narrow channel out to main lake from the cove. the wind is either blowing into or out of the channel so you are taking one way or the other.

the CoreSound is the only boat I have been able to tack my way out of. And I have bneen able to do it repeatedly.

I also note the other sailboats in the marina are motoring in or out depending on wind direction and not even trying to short tack.

Critical to pointing performance is to make sure your sprits are ong enough to really flatten them. If sprits are too short you can easily lose 10 degrees fo tacking performance.

The Glued Lap si probably likely the stronger of the two hulls with the overlapping planks adding longitudinal ribbing making it stiffer and the rounded hull as well.

Point that was made is that the hard chine allows you to glass over outer hull where that would not be possible with glued lap. Glass is not to make hull stronger but to provide abrasion resistance and some impact resistance.

Truth be told avoiding hitting rocks is the better solution...

Sailor skill will play a bigger role than hull on these boats. the CS has an edge speed potential wise but Tom Lathrop handed me my pride on a platter at the Small Reach Regatta outsailing me with abandon in his lapwing.... (Guess where I learned my sprits were too short and I was losing out in a big way on the upwind legs?

Which boat do you like the looks of the best?

And would you prefer ease and speed of building and performance potential over aesthetics?

The Lapwing was designed primarily to provide the aesthetics of a glued lap boat that would perform comparable to a CoreSound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love my Lapwing but building one is quite a bit more effort than building a CS. A more realistic performance comparison would be to the CS15 rather than the CS17. I suspect there would not be enough difference to notice in that case. Pointing angle of either will be a shade more off the wind than a very good sloop and either will come through a tack a bit slower. Those are just natural factors of a split rig with significant sail areas in the ends of the boat. These factors are much more than offset by the great attributes of the cat ketch rig as described in the article on the website.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I was :rolleyes: misunderstood :) again. Of course the lap hull is probably a little stronger. Its the bottom edge of the each plank, that is at risk during a grounding or a bump. It's sticks out there all by its self. Where the CS's is usually glassed bottom of one layer and most of the time the chines have two or more layers of glass, this gives the CS the advantage in abrasion resistance.

I personally bump into things from time to time and also like to beach the boat occasionally. Not that I like to fix paint, but if you use your boat a lot like I do stuff just happens.

BUT I still think the Laping is one of the most beautiful boats on the water. :) :) :)

Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I built and loved my CS17 Kokako. When I saw Lapwing - I fell in love - when I stand on a beach watching my boat swing on its mooring there is something about a rounded behind that I can not resist. The building is definitely more complex - but having built a couple of hard chine boat I wanted to try something different. For a number of reasons my build has 'stalled' but I am just getting ready to start again (hopefully complete by Jan 2012 to sail over the summer.

To me all of Graham's boats perform - a knot here or there is not as important to me as sailing a well designed boat that fits my 'eye' (and that factor will be different for everyone)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your good advice.

I had the opportunity to speak to Graham the other day for about 20 minutes – thank you Graham for all that time. He advised me that the CS17 would be a more stable boat and a little roomier, and when I told him I didn’t have much sailing experience, suggested the CS17 should be the boat I build. Also the CS17 comes in kit form which is very appealing to me. So while I think the Lapwing 16 is a more aesthetically pleasing boat , I will probably be purchasing the CS17 kit sometime mid-September.

We also had a discussion on wood masts versus aluminum – I think wood masts are more pleasing to look at – and Graham advised that the aluminum mast was sure to perform according to his spec’s while what with the differences in woods this can not be assured when building a wooden mast. So, again, I think I will go for practicality over aesthetics.

That said, I really do like the looks of the Core Sound 17 and painting the mast will go a long way to resolving my aesthetic issues in that regard.

Once I start the build I’m sure I’ll be posting all sorts of questions.

Thanks again,

Neil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neil,

Regarding masts, I agree aluminum has every advantage (except appearance) but wooden masts are still feasible. I'm getting along fine with 5 piece laminated solid Douglas Fir masts. My only caution is that the weight of a wooden main mast can be a handful to unstep when you're wet, tired, and cold. I dislike the appearance of aluminum masts so I'm willing to live with the extra weight.

Randy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Compared to a Hobie 16 mast, my aluminum masts are easy, and very light, almost single hand lifting... Holding near the bottom with the rest straight up in the air is very easy... Once you go from .125 thick for the bottom section, to .065 and it gets narrower the weight just goes away.

- Edward

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Supporting Members

Supporting Members can create Clubs, photo Galleries, don't see ads and make messing-about.com possible! Become a Supporting Member - only $12 for the next year. Pay by PayPal or credit card.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.