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Curlew vs Ravenswood?


JamesBarros

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Hi guys.

So, after 3 attempts at cross-sections, I've realized I'm not a woodworker. That's ok, the wonderful kudzucraft kit will come to my rescue... right? ;) So, I'm deciding between the curlew and the ravenswood. I think the curlew looks really neat, and am half tempted to get it on that basis alone.

I am an ocean kayaker (Los Angles, California Channel Islands, etc) and in the past, I've preferred the narrower boats I've paddled. Often I end up in long and skinnys, and those seem to work well for me, but I'm not a fast paddler, and since everyone says the short boats are better in the range I paddle in. I generally like the narrower beam; I'll lie and say that's because it gives me a better dig, and not because I keep bashing my knuckles on the combing ;)

So, ocean paddling, prefer narrower boats, the curlew is a shoe in? However, since Ravenswood is a second gen boat, and it's based on the curlew and "depending on your goals, improved it some", I thought I'd ask, and see if there was a noticable improvement in paddling performance, and what that means.

How do they both track?

What does secondary stability feel like in each of them?

Can I lean correct easily?

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Thanks. :)

-- James

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I would prefer to let builders reply and hopefully some will, but there have not been that many people on here yet so I am going answer some of you questions and probably put a few back at you.

So, I'm deciding between the curlew and the ravenswood. I think the curlew looks really neat, and am half tempted to get it on that basis alone.

I am an ocean kayaker (Los Angles, California Channel Islands, etc) and in the past, I've preferred the narrower boats I've paddled. Often I end up in long and skinnys, and those seem to work well for me, but I'm not a fast paddler, and since everyone says the short boats are better in the range I paddle in. I generally like the narrower beam; I'll lie and say that's because it gives me a better dig, and not because I keep bashing my knuckles on the combing ;)

One thing to keep in mind is personal preference really overrides anyone's opinion. If you prefer long and narrow you may not like a shorter boat. I started out in my Curlew. Spent lots of hours in it and I sill paddle it. But after building Long Shot I paddle it more than anything else. Not that there is anything wrong with the Curlew, I just like the Long Shot better.

So, ocean paddling, prefer narrower boats, the curlew is a shoe in? However, since Ravenswood is a second gen boat, and it's based on the curlew and "depending on your goals, improved it some", I thought I'd ask, and see if there was a noticable improvement in paddling performance, and what that means.

Given the choice between the two I think Curlew is a little better. (Keep in mind that I live and paddle inland and do not have experience in ocean conditions. Our lake is very large and open and subject to big waves, but it takes strong enough wind that I am not paddling in the most of the time.

Most people prefer the pointy ends of the Ravenswood and the slight increased the stability. But in open water I would rather have a little less stability. So if you like the styling I would chose Curlew over Ravenswood. At the same time the differences are no dramatic. But if you get in a sprint or want to push a little bit Curlew is going to be better at the higher speeds. Slight lower stability isn't going to want to roll as much on big waves.

How do they both track?

What does secondary stability feel like in each of them?

Can I lean correct easily?

I have never paddled a Ravenswood, sad isn't it? But I they are very similar because the hull are so similar. Curlew responds very well to a slight lean, that is how I make minor course corrections. Tracking is great and since you can correct with a lean I am always very comfortable in it. Secondary in my opinion is pretty good, you can feel it stiffen up as you lean over. Of course I know anything I say is presumed to be biased and I understand that. Hopefully someone that has built one will chime in.

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Thanks. :)

I know this is going to be as difficult as describing wines, but I have to ask; What is it that you find you prefer over the curlew. Is it just the higher achievable speed? I can't imagine that a longer boat with the same beam is any easier to paddle at similar (low) speeds. (or does the soft chine make up for the length difference? ) and since the waves in the pacific are of such long interval (99% of the time) I don't think extra length would really help there, so I'm curious if there's something specific, or if it's just a sweet spot you hit with the feel of the boat?

I'm certainly open to trying my hand at the longshot. I'll be building from kit, and I don't think a few extra stringers will kill even someone as inept as myself... so... it's really just trying to determine what the best boat is, which, as a shipwright, you know is never done. In the meantime, though, it's which is the best one for me to start construction on next paycheck ;)

If you say the longshot isn't noticably more work to paddle at low speeds, and is noticably less at high speeds, and otherwise, turns in, leans, and handles well, with good secondary stability and low primary stability, I'll go with that one instead. :)

Thanks again.

-- James

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I knew you were going to ask that and it is largely that it fits me better, I am more comfortable in it than any of my other boats. Why? I don't really know. Maybe I have just paddle it so long that I have adapted to it.

As for speed I don't think there is any noticeable difference in paddling them at low speeds and the numbers back this up. But if you push a little there is a very noticeable difference when you get to 4 mph and higher. The reason is the hull shape, there is a lot more than just width that effects a boat. Width is actually a pretty poor comparison but that is what most people use.

A more round hull compared to a hard chined boat will typically have a smaller surface area and that has as big effect on the resistance. A true round shape will have the lowest but even if it were 36" wide it would have virtually no stability. But Long Shots rounded multi-chined hull has lower resistance than Curlew. It's not so noticeable at the slower speeds but if you get in a sprint it really show. Curlew feels like it hits a wall and you can can't push it any faster. Long Shot will just go right through it.

The one thing I do not like about my Long Shot and I think I have fixed this is the tracking is a little loose. My personal boat was the prototype and the frame is a little to flexible. When I get in the rocker increases a little and on big waves you can feel it flex. I think that is why it's tracking is a little loose. I modified the plans and increased the stringer sizes to stiff the frame. I have considered adding a small strip skeg on the back for a while now and just have not done it. It would not take much to tighten it up. It has never been a big problem but in certain, usually windy conditions I wish it tracked just a little tighter. By adding the strip skeg I can fine tune it to where I want. But it's not to bad because I never get around to adding it. I don't think the modified plans would need one, but if you found it did it would be pretty simple to add. I need to put that on my list.

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Awesome, thanks. While I paddle in strong winds and large seas often (the local cg knows me, I'm the kid on the sit on top in small craft advisories messing about near enough to the shore that if there IS a real issue, i can just come in quickly) While I've always liked the long pointies, this will be the first kayak I own instead of borrow, and most of my experience has been with smaller plastic, rental sot's. I expect anything in the world will track better than them, so I presume that'll be ok.

I'm a little curious as to the sinew vs epoxy question. I would presume going with epoxy would stiffen the boat up a little as well, (at the expense of frame durability)

Either way, I think I'll go for the LS, and see how it goes. :) I'll toss you an order around the 16th of March when I get paid next :)

Thanks :)

- James

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of course, I just realized, if I'm looking at the long shot, and it's a first time building project (which it is) I should probably ask if you think the slingshot would be drastically enough simpler to put together that it would make a better first boat project?

and on a related, but only vaguely note. I think the rounded bows and fantail sterns give the boats a really distinct and beautiful look. Do you have a lot of people asking you for the pointy bows and more... "traditional" looking boat?

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....and on a related, but only vaguely note. I think the rounded bows and fantail sterns give the boats a really distinct and beautiful look. Do you have a lot of people asking you for the pointy bows and more... "traditional" looking boat?

The bow and stern were to make my boats stand out. I wanted you to be able to stand on the bank and say that is a Kudzu Craft. I have only had a couple of people actually say they didn't like the Rounded bow. But sales numbers tell the tale and Ravenswood outsells Curlew probably 3 to 1 and that tells me that people like pointy bows. Frankly I do to, so I have been leaning toward longer raked bows on new designs.

The stern design, besides being unique makes the boat a bit easier to build. I think one of the hardest parts for many builders is trimming the stringers to fit at the ends. It requires a compound angle cut which I assume is not easy for a someone that doesn't do a lot of woodworking. I rarely get one right the first cut and have to some trimming and I have built a lot of these. Once you fit one end, you don't usually get a second chance at the other end. If you cut it to short your going to have to take the stringer off and replace it or scarf on a new piece to get the length.

With the Faintail stern you fit the bow leaving the stringer long. Then you simple cut it to length at the stern, no fitting. Slim chance of it being to short.

I'm a little curious as to the sinew vs epoxy question. I would presume going with epoxy would stiffen the boat up a little as well, (at the expense of frame durability)

George Dyson is credited with saying "The question is not why man started lashing things together, but why did he quit?" Yes I am biased but I find no flaws with lashing. I epoxied my first frame and it worked and held up fine. But so have the boats I lashed. I don't think the flex is at the joints as much as it is the way the frames are built. If you lash one right the joint is very tight and will only move with a lot of pressure. I believe the spacing between the frames/lenght of unsupported stringer is where any flex comes from.

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"increased the stringer sizes to stiff the frame"

This answers a question I have had about scantling size, Jeff. I kept wondering if I could save weight by knocking off a 1/4", but I see the flex would cause problems.

You wouldn't save more than maybe a pound? Just guessing but it would end up in a more flexible boat and that is not a good thing. My personal Long Shot was my prototype and all the stringers were 5/8 x 5/8 except the gunwales. It has to much flex in the hull and I changed the design because of that.

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