I have a Weekender and love it. I also live near the So. California coast and would love to sail the big pond but I'm aware of the design limitations of the Weekender. I took a line drawing of the Weekender and drew in modifications that I think would make her more sea worthy. They were beyond what you could do to the Weekender so off to the internet for a boat search.
I found a design at Atkin & Co http://www.boat-link...l/NannyGay.html that has the modifications that I wanted and is very similar to the Weekender. Has anyone built the Nanny-Gay or built any of the Atkin designs? She looks like she could be built with plywood planking but the hull materials aren't mentioned in the description. Any thoughts? TIA,
Bruce Hagan
25 replies to this topic
#2
ChrisObee
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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:38 AM
It is certainly a much more capable boat than weekender. I like its look. It will not be easilly beachable with that keel.
#3
bharleyh
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Posted 13 February 2010 - 01:57 AM
I've sent away for the Nanny-Gay study plans so I'll soon have more details on the boat. My main interest is for a trailerable gaff rigged boat that can be plywood planked, be coastal seaworthy, and not have a steel centerboard. I would rather fuss with getting a 2'3" draft boat on a trailer than trying to build a boat with a couple hundred pound steel plate in the middle. Call me silly but I just don't like holes in the bottom of my boat. My Weekender has a simple hull and that is one of my criteria for a coastal cuiser.
I think the Nanny-Gay could be beached on steep shores. However my first boat project is going to be some sort of folding dingy that could be carried by my Weekender. I could also use that dingy for the Nanny-Gay. So if I can't beach the Nanny-Gay I'll still be able to go ashore.
Thank you for your thoughts on beaching the Nanny-Gay, I welcome any future replies and opinions. I will also follow up this post when I receive the study plans.
Bruce Hagan
I think the Nanny-Gay could be beached on steep shores. However my first boat project is going to be some sort of folding dingy that could be carried by my Weekender. I could also use that dingy for the Nanny-Gay. So if I can't beach the Nanny-Gay I'll still be able to go ashore.
Thank you for your thoughts on beaching the Nanny-Gay, I welcome any future replies and opinions. I will also follow up this post when I receive the study plans.
Bruce Hagan
#4
PAR
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Posted 13 February 2010 - 05:29 AM
Atkins, plans will be considerably lacking compared to Weekender's. It's assumed that you have some building experience and will loft and pick up templates from the lofting. Most Atkins plans packages include, lines, construction, accommodation, deck and sail plans drawings. Plus offsets, some building notes and maybe some engine and plumbing details (don't hold your breath). The plans are complete if you're a boat builder, but woefully lacking to a novice builder. Generally, you get what you pay for.
Second on the consideration list is though John did up date the plans (adding a Bermudian rig in the '60's) the design was done long before plywood was in wide spread use. In other words, though the hull looks mostly developed, the forefoot and aft sections will require the plywood to be slit. This is because the hull shapes are not "developed" from conical and/or cylindrical sections. As a result, you have to "play" with the planking to make it fit the molds, which usually requires molding, double diagonal planking or splitting.
This is a typical "Billy" (Atkins) single chine design. It has fairly balanced WL's with some bearing aft. A well honed down cutwater in the forefoot, but some bury to the planks and a moderately fine entry. Lots of drag to the keel and about 25% of the displacement in ballast (590 pounds of lead). This is partly because it's fairly heavily framed, solid spars and thickly planked.
Sailing habits of this hull will be more ship like then small boat, she'll balance well to the helm. Carrying well over a ton of displacement (I estimate around 2,400 pounds), her D/L will be moderate to high, which translates into a comfortable motion in a mixed up chop or storm. On the other hand, this also means she'll need some wind to get moving as I speculate the SA/D to be in the 15 to 16 range, which is miserable sailing in light to moderate wind strengths. She'll be stiff, comfortable and not especially fast, but she will be steady, reliable and safe feeling under foot, which isn't anything to sneeze at either.
A tall bulwark will help hide the height of the cabin side wall. Maybe some more cabin roof crown too.
Second on the consideration list is though John did up date the plans (adding a Bermudian rig in the '60's) the design was done long before plywood was in wide spread use. In other words, though the hull looks mostly developed, the forefoot and aft sections will require the plywood to be slit. This is because the hull shapes are not "developed" from conical and/or cylindrical sections. As a result, you have to "play" with the planking to make it fit the molds, which usually requires molding, double diagonal planking or splitting.
This is a typical "Billy" (Atkins) single chine design. It has fairly balanced WL's with some bearing aft. A well honed down cutwater in the forefoot, but some bury to the planks and a moderately fine entry. Lots of drag to the keel and about 25% of the displacement in ballast (590 pounds of lead). This is partly because it's fairly heavily framed, solid spars and thickly planked.
Sailing habits of this hull will be more ship like then small boat, she'll balance well to the helm. Carrying well over a ton of displacement (I estimate around 2,400 pounds), her D/L will be moderate to high, which translates into a comfortable motion in a mixed up chop or storm. On the other hand, this also means she'll need some wind to get moving as I speculate the SA/D to be in the 15 to 16 range, which is miserable sailing in light to moderate wind strengths. She'll be stiff, comfortable and not especially fast, but she will be steady, reliable and safe feeling under foot, which isn't anything to sneeze at either.
A tall bulwark will help hide the height of the cabin side wall. Maybe some more cabin roof crown too.
#5
Frank Hagan
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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:24 PM
One consideration is the ease of launching her at the boat ramp. You really can't take a boat to lakes any more in California without committing to that lake, and having your boat in quarantine for quite a while before launch. So the launch ramp at Dana Point is going to be your usual launching point, and maybe on occasion San Diego's Mission Bay or Long Beach (both are great to sail out of).
Since our coast is mostly in surf or rocky, you won't be beaching her anyway. An exception is if you sail Mission Bay; there is a beach there you can beach your boat on, and I have done it exactly once.
So, I think that without a daggerboard or centerboard that puts the weight down low, you need more weight in the hull for the same amount of stability. That translates to a heavier boat at the ramp. The deeper keel means the boat sits higher on the trailer, and you have to back it farther down the ramp to launch her ... you can get a tongue extension if necessary, and because our tides are not extreme, you can probably launch even in low tide without falling off the bottom of the ramp. You might check and see how long Dana Point's ramp is, and if sailboats ever get stuck there during launching (if the trailer wheels go off the end of the ramp, you usually have to get a tow truck to pull it out.)
Using PAR's estimate of 2,400 pounds would make it a little over twice as heavy as my Potter 19. You could lighten the load a bit by converting the hull to ply construction. I have Devlin's book on boat building where he describes a method to convert a traditional boat to a stitch and glue style of planking and I can loan it to you next time you're north or we're south.
A centerboard or daggerboard (like in my Potter) allows you to have less of a keel and a shallower draft boat. But its a trade-off, because especially in a small boat, the centerboard trunk takes up valuable cabin space.
Since our coast is mostly in surf or rocky, you won't be beaching her anyway. An exception is if you sail Mission Bay; there is a beach there you can beach your boat on, and I have done it exactly once.
So, I think that without a daggerboard or centerboard that puts the weight down low, you need more weight in the hull for the same amount of stability. That translates to a heavier boat at the ramp. The deeper keel means the boat sits higher on the trailer, and you have to back it farther down the ramp to launch her ... you can get a tongue extension if necessary, and because our tides are not extreme, you can probably launch even in low tide without falling off the bottom of the ramp. You might check and see how long Dana Point's ramp is, and if sailboats ever get stuck there during launching (if the trailer wheels go off the end of the ramp, you usually have to get a tow truck to pull it out.)
Using PAR's estimate of 2,400 pounds would make it a little over twice as heavy as my Potter 19. You could lighten the load a bit by converting the hull to ply construction. I have Devlin's book on boat building where he describes a method to convert a traditional boat to a stitch and glue style of planking and I can loan it to you next time you're north or we're south.
A centerboard or daggerboard (like in my Potter) allows you to have less of a keel and a shallower draft boat. But its a trade-off, because especially in a small boat, the centerboard trunk takes up valuable cabin space.
#6
bharleyh
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Posted 14 February 2010 - 07:50 AM
Thanks for responding guys. I had no idea the Nanny-Gay would end up so heavy, kinda puts the kabosh on pulling her up steep mountain roads. I might look into converting her to stich and glue but I'll get my own Devlin book Frank. As you know I tend to keep books that are loaned to me. Looks as though I'll be adding weight to my criteria.
Two boats I was interested in prior to finding the Nanny-Gay were the Winter Wren II (Devlin) and the Ptarmigan 17 (Selway-Fisher). Both are stich and glue and much lighter. The Ptarmigan 17 has the most interest for me because of the gaff rig and the pivot for the keel plate is mounted in the keel instead of the CB trunk.
Having never built a boat (like father, like son) I wonder how much trouble I can get myself into with stich and glue. Couldn't be any tougher glassing a surfboard. Right?
The search goes on. Again always open for suggestions.
Bruce Hagan
Two boats I was interested in prior to finding the Nanny-Gay were the Winter Wren II (Devlin) and the Ptarmigan 17 (Selway-Fisher). Both are stich and glue and much lighter. The Ptarmigan 17 has the most interest for me because of the gaff rig and the pivot for the keel plate is mounted in the keel instead of the CB trunk.
Having never built a boat (like father, like son) I wonder how much trouble I can get myself into with stich and glue. Couldn't be any tougher glassing a surfboard. Right?
The search goes on. Again always open for suggestions.
Bruce Hagan
#7
JeffM
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Posted 15 February 2010 - 08:30 PM
Bruce, I have a Core Sound 20, and I can speak a little about centerboards. The cb trunk is a bit of a complication and does take up space, but I've never had mine leak, except some splashing up through the slot at speed. On the other hand, some designs (Bellhaven is an example) off set the cb trunk and build it into other furniture (the Bellhaven makes it one side of the galley counter). I've accomodated mine by extending one bench seat to the trunk to make a semi-permanent berth. And some centerboard trunks are capped (with tackle kept out of the cabin entirely) so they can't spit. Most of all, my cb enables me to float in 10" of water and use most any ramp. I can't imagine I'd ever go sailing if it meant putting up with launching a keelboat. Of course, another option that gives shallow draft AND an open cabin is leeboards.
#8
PAR
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Posted 16 February 2010 - 02:57 AM
It isn't necessary to have open top centerboard cases, leaks or complicated lowering/hoisting systems. You also don't have to live with big cases intruding into cabin spaces. For example I have a similar length design that has 27" of draft, plus a centerboard and there is no case above the cabin sole at all, it's all housed within the keel. Other then a 1/4" hole, where the hoisting lanyard comes through the top of the case, there's no direct route for water into the inside of the boat.
Naturally, there are trade offs. The centerboards that are completely housed within a keel or below the cabin sole, usually will require a stub keel of some sort, which increases minimum draft. 27" of water isn't that bad in most places, if the ramp is properly dimensioned. Much more then this and yes, you will have launching difficulties. Here in Florida, we have a keen understanding of shoal draft requirements. I can take you to places where you have to go several hundred feet off shore, just to be in 27" deep water. Fortunately, most places aren't this bad, especially boat ramps.
Naturally, there are trade offs. The centerboards that are completely housed within a keel or below the cabin sole, usually will require a stub keel of some sort, which increases minimum draft. 27" of water isn't that bad in most places, if the ramp is properly dimensioned. Much more then this and yes, you will have launching difficulties. Here in Florida, we have a keen understanding of shoal draft requirements. I can take you to places where you have to go several hundred feet off shore, just to be in 27" deep water. Fortunately, most places aren't this bad, especially boat ramps.
#9
Frank Hagan
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Posted 16 February 2010 - 07:18 PM
The Bellhaven and the Princess are great designs, light and easy to launch, and proven with builders around here. But they don't have the traditional look you are after.
Does Devlin's Winter Wren offer "sitting headroom"? It might, but some of the small boats end up with cabins much like the Weekender ... you can't sit up in them. Capt. Jake might know; he's worked with Devlin and I think he was popping into the shop about the time the Winter Wren was being built. The Ptarmigan 17 looks like it has good sitting headroom from the pictures.
NZ designer John Welsford is well respected, even though he doesn't want a forum here! (He has an active Yahoo group). His Penguin is a gaffer, and very sea worthy. I would search out his Yahoo group and find out if anyone on this side of the pond has built one; I've heard it can be a harder build on his boats with frames, etc.
Does Devlin's Winter Wren offer "sitting headroom"? It might, but some of the small boats end up with cabins much like the Weekender ... you can't sit up in them. Capt. Jake might know; he's worked with Devlin and I think he was popping into the shop about the time the Winter Wren was being built. The Ptarmigan 17 looks like it has good sitting headroom from the pictures.
NZ designer John Welsford is well respected, even though he doesn't want a forum here! (He has an active Yahoo group). His Penguin is a gaffer, and very sea worthy. I would search out his Yahoo group and find out if anyone on this side of the pond has built one; I've heard it can be a harder build on his boats with frames, etc.
#10
bharleyh
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Posted 17 February 2010 - 07:12 AM
I love the looks of the Belhaven and the the Glen-L Tango would look very similar with a sloping cabin front. These are designs I'm serious about if I go for modern styled boats. However there is one thing I've learned with Aslan, one mast is enough! And I want to be able to get to the mast or bow with out climbing over the cabin. That means side decks or a hatch big enough for me to get through.
Winter Wren II probably has sitting head room. Devlin's site has Builder Testimonials (with pics) and the Winter Wren is posted there with an inside pic. There's a low v-berth-seat combo and cabinets (under the hatch). This assumes that the cabins of the Winter Wren-II and Winter Wren are similar. The head room on the Ptarmigan 17 is listed as 4'6". I'm probably going to order study plans of these two designs.
My interest in the Penquin is very high, but my boat building experience is very low. If I had built a boat or two the Penquin would be at the top of my list. My only concern about the Penquin is she's a little heavy but I believe that's what makes her a true coastal trailer sailer. As a complete novice sailer/builder Penquin is the one that looks like she could handle some Pacific swells.
Maybe I should have two boats. One for lakes (Weekender) and one for coastal. But that would mean I would have to sell a jeep or two to get storage room....
Again thanks to every one who has taken the time to voice their opinions.
Bruce Hagan
Winter Wren II probably has sitting head room. Devlin's site has Builder Testimonials (with pics) and the Winter Wren is posted there with an inside pic. There's a low v-berth-seat combo and cabinets (under the hatch). This assumes that the cabins of the Winter Wren-II and Winter Wren are similar. The head room on the Ptarmigan 17 is listed as 4'6". I'm probably going to order study plans of these two designs.
My interest in the Penquin is very high, but my boat building experience is very low. If I had built a boat or two the Penquin would be at the top of my list. My only concern about the Penquin is she's a little heavy but I believe that's what makes her a true coastal trailer sailer. As a complete novice sailer/builder Penquin is the one that looks like she could handle some Pacific swells.
Maybe I should have two boats. One for lakes (Weekender) and one for coastal. But that would mean I would have to sell a jeep or two to get storage room....
Again thanks to every one who has taken the time to voice their opinions.
Bruce Hagan
#11
Frank Hagan
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Posted 17 February 2010 - 07:15 PM
The NZ sailors are brave, hardy souls who would laugh at what we call "rough weather". Like their neighbors the Aussies, they drink giant beers and go to sea in small boats with the confidence usually reserved for mad men or those guys that sail in and out the 'gate in San Francisco! If I wasn't an American, I would like to be an Aussie or Kiwi. Good people.
Ray Frechette has built some of Welsford's designs, so he may have some input when he checks in. The weight is a concern, especially at Dana Point. We should bring messing-about down to Dana Point for a sail weekend. Little docks, lots of traffic, and most people there have never seen a sail ("what's that big stick thing you have sticking up out of your boat?")
Ray Frechette has built some of Welsford's designs, so he may have some input when he checks in. The weight is a concern, especially at Dana Point. We should bring messing-about down to Dana Point for a sail weekend. Little docks, lots of traffic, and most people there have never seen a sail ("what's that big stick thing you have sticking up out of your boat?")
#12
bharleyh
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Posted 18 February 2010 - 09:10 PM
Wouldn't it be eaiser if we went north? It's a lot eaiser pull from your house to the harbor up there. Name your day and I'll come up and crew for you. Like I said I even know the names of some of the ropes now.
Bruce
Bruce
#13
Ken_Potts
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Posted 18 February 2010 - 10:05 PM
North is uphill. You guys should split the difference and head East. We'll launch at the ramp near Oyster's house so we have a place to park.
#14
Frank Hagan
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Posted 19 February 2010 - 09:32 PM
Wouldn't it be eaiser if we went north? It's a lot eaiser pull from your house to the harbor up there. Name your day and I'll come up and crew for you. Like I said I even know the names of some of the ropes now.
Bruce
Yeah, but that way you would never see the circus that is the Dana Point ramp! Its actually not too bad, but it is ALL powerboats.
#15
Frank Hagan
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Posted 19 February 2010 - 09:33 PM
North is uphill. You guys should split the difference and head East. We'll launch at the ramp near Oyster's house so we have a place to park.
I'm thinking of heading into B&B country this year for the mess-about, but I won't be bringing a boat ... I don't have any that will fit into an overhead bin!
#16
maligno
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Posted 24 February 2010 - 07:36 PM
As I am in a similar quandary as Bruce looking for what boat to build with more capabilities than my Weekender, can someone please comment on the Whisstock designs?
Particularly Design 119 (17ft; 3-berth; EU Category: Inshore) http://www.whisstock...2.07&design=119
and Design 123 (20ft; 4-berth; EU Category: Offshore) http://www.whisstock...2.10&design=123
They look very interesting though compared to a Belhaven they may be more difficult to build and have a lot more strings to pull.
Thanks,
Rolando
Design 119
Particularly Design 119 (17ft; 3-berth; EU Category: Inshore) http://www.whisstock...2.07&design=119
and Design 123 (20ft; 4-berth; EU Category: Offshore) http://www.whisstock...2.10&design=123
They look very interesting though compared to a Belhaven they may be more difficult to build and have a lot more strings to pull.
Thanks,
Rolando
Design 119
#17
Frank Hagan
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Posted 24 February 2010 - 09:40 PM
The 119 is a great looking boat! The construction will be more time consuming than a Belhaven, I think, but it can be cold molded using strip planking. I guess the displacement is about 1500 pounds. The 123 is larger, and closer to 3,000 pounds. I remember a boat builder telling me you can tell a boat is going to cost more to build the more it weighs, and that probably goes for time too.
They are pretty boats, that's for sure. I'll let one of the pros comment on the general design. Based on the hull shape, I don't think it will sail as flat as a Weekender does!
They are pretty boats, that's for sure. I'll let one of the pros comment on the general design. Based on the hull shape, I don't think it will sail as flat as a Weekender does!
#18
Johnny Socko
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Posted 25 February 2010 - 08:15 AM
Before I found the weekender I was going to build CLC Pocketship. It is a beautiful little bleach bottle type boat.
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#19
bharleyh
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Posted 26 February 2010 - 08:33 PM
I really like the look of the CLC Pocketship. Clean and elegant in its simplicity. With mostly stich and glue construction this would be a good first boat or a great second project after building a Weekender. I still think building a Weekender is a great way to get into sailboat building. You can learn a lot and not have to deal with monster steel plates on a pivot. As a carpenter's son I (of course) did most my lifes work with metal. I know how hard it can be to manhandle a big steel plate.
If I were smart (as a novice boat builder and sailor) I would build the CLC Pocketship. But, I've fallen in love with the gaff rig and a skipjack hull. And there are darn few skipjack plans for the home builder. And all of them are of traditional designs and construction and probably over my skill level. Except for the Weekender. And that is her appeal and her niche in boat building, and why she is so popular with first timers. I've read lots of forum strings bad mouthing the Weekender design but guess what? She's fun to sail. Thanks for opening another door for me Frank.
Bruce
If I were smart (as a novice boat builder and sailor) I would build the CLC Pocketship. But, I've fallen in love with the gaff rig and a skipjack hull. And there are darn few skipjack plans for the home builder. And all of them are of traditional designs and construction and probably over my skill level. Except for the Weekender. And that is her appeal and her niche in boat building, and why she is so popular with first timers. I've read lots of forum strings bad mouthing the Weekender design but guess what? She's fun to sail. Thanks for opening another door for me Frank.
Bruce
#20
Frank Hagan
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Posted 26 February 2010 - 09:14 PM
Some people are too busy criticizing things to enjoy life. Its a pity. A Weekender is a fun boat, and all boats, other than that thing they use to get you across the river Jordan, have their trade offs.
