PAR Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 To update this thread, Lloyds is now not actively inspecting manufactured sheet goods (plywood) or products. They have implemented a voluntary sample submission program, which gets the manufacture a document, permitting them to say it's Lloyds compliant, with the fine print suggesting they've only approved the sample, but they trust it's indicative of the manufacture's product. In the case of the major suppliers, such as Joubert, you can rest assured they'll continue to comply with the previous rating program. Apparently, this has been going on for a few years now and might go a long way to explaining, why there's a sudden inrush of cheap, Chinese imitation BS-1088 stuff floating around the world. With no one at Lloyds actually checking on manufactures, they just copy a label and and go for it. Maybe Lloyds needs to change it's labels regularly, possibly with a manufacture's ID number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 In the case of the major suppliers, such as Joubert, you can rest assured they'll continue to comply with the previous rating program. I wish I could agree with you Par, but unfortunatly I've already found out through one of our clients and also through our own testing that this doesn't hold. One of our clients who was especially chasing a light weight dinghy, asked if I could recalculate one of our designs using the suppliers figures. Using 460kg/m^3, the boat should have come out to approx 40 kg. So, he rang the supplier and purchased the plywood based on the suppliers figures for weight. After building the boat, I asked him to weigh it and to our surprise it came out to 65 kg. The builder went over every part of the boat, trying to figure out where the extra 25 kg came from. So, I opened up my weights and moments spreadsheet, I recalculated the boat using 600 kg/m^3 plywood density and the spreadsheet result was 64.5 kg boat weight. Having some samples of this Lloyds plywood, I then did a density test and yes, the result was ...600kg/m^3. Further testing resulted in 6mm plywood = 600 kg/m^3 9mm plywood = 540 kg/m^3 Overall, through my own research, testing and use of Lloyds Special Service Craft standard, I could say a lot on this subject, particulary in regards to this "approved" plywood and all it's so called marketing, but I feel that I must leave it all for obvious reasons... unsaid. Maybe Lloyds needs to change it's labels regularly, possibly with a manufacture's ID number. I couldn't agree with you more mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I know where you've avoided going Mark. You and I, as well as many others in the industry have been watching this "trend" occur for some years now. I'm fortunate is as much as I've been able to avoid the Chinese BS-1088 trap, but I have seen a fall off, even from Joubert in quality. I make it a point to physically examine each sheet I get and my suppliers know what I expect and don't try to pass of crap (they know I'll catch it). In a lot of cases I've showed them what to look for. I still think the major suppliers are trying to meet BS-1088, but a self governing system is doomed eventually. Maybe after Lloyds has to pay out a few times, for stock that didn't meet the once reputable certification programs, they'll cut their loses and start making changes. After all, it's all about money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 After all, it's all about money. I couldn't agree with you more mate. To tell you the truth, after testing it and calculating the bending strength and Modulus of Elasticity of the said ply, I was pretty disappointed actually. Especially when considering the price of the plywood against other plys. But yes... that is a story I don't want to get involved with here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Mark, I think you and I are on the same page. I just weighed a pallet of Okoume, sheet by sheet and drew an average, which was higher then what Lloyds said it should be, but not by a lot. If you knock out the odd ball highs and lows in this lot, it was well under +10% of the spec, which is acceptable. The construction seem good and as expected from this supplier, but a few sheets in the pallet did have unacceptable BS-1088 grade defects, but taken as a whole, about 5% of the lot had sufficient issues to not consider it BS-1088 grade (3 out of 55 sheets). These sheets could be considered BS-6566 and each was marked appropriately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted December 31, 2011 Report Share Posted December 31, 2011 Assuming a guy was in the market for a sizable quantity of BS 1088 meranti (I am), how does one know who the manufacturer is? Where I live in the midwest, as near as I can tell, I'm at least 500 miles from the nearest retailer / wholesaler of this type of marine ply, so I'm stuck with one of the mail order houses.....or a road trip. Most online vendors don't say much about the product, other than it's BS 1088 or BS 6566. So how would one know if it's made in China or where it came from? Also, what is the difference between BS 1088 and Hydrotek? Who makes Hydrotek? I have used Edensaw in the past. Anyone know of other reliable shippers? BTW, Noah Marine offers BS 1088 at a "good" price. No mention of source or Hydrotek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Hydrotech and Aquatech are now generic names given Meranti sheets, that meet the BS-1088 or 6566 standard. Call you supplier and ask them where they've gotten the stock from and if they can send you a fax or picture of the label. The price is a good indication of the cheap imports stock. If it's surprisingly low priced, there's probably a good reason. a 1/4" (6 mm) sheet will be about $35 to $40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Curious Par, How much is a sheet of 6mm Lloyds plywood worth in the States ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Well, it depends on species, supplier and sales type. A 1/4" (6 mm) sheet of BS-1088 Meranti will be about $35 - $45 at retail pricing. Okoume will be about twice this, again at retail. At wholesale, you can expect considerable savings, though often you need to buy a fairly large stack of plywood. I'll buy a pallet at a time, but a 1/4" Meranti sheet then becomes a $22 - $25 piece, which is enough to consider this bulk purchasing. Teaming up with others, who also need marine grades can help in this regard. Everyone pools their money, buys a few grand worth of material, then divides it up after purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Thanks Par, Typical BS1088 ply as you mention above is similiar in price to ours here in Oz. However, when it comes to Lloyds Okoume ply, its way more than what your paying !! 4mm - $83 per sheet 6mm - $126 9mm - $147 12mm - $198 15mm - $220 18mm - $243 25mm - $330 And this doesn't include transport charges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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