lwolstenholme Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Here is a link to a Chinese manufacturer that claims to be the only BS1088 Okoume mill in China. http://www.tnwood.com/en_sgscert.html I'm not sure the Nanjing Wood-Based Testing Center is the same as Lloyds of London. I did find a list of Lloyd of London certified BS1088 producers via the following really confusing web site: https://www.cdlive.lr.org/ "search under approvals list" then "type approval system" and searching "plywood" Here is the list that was generated showing mills with valid BS1088 certificates. Of course this TN Wood mill is not listed: Product: 'Plywood and Other Wood Boards (Part 1A)' (searched for 'plywood') Manufacturer Certificate Country Expiry Date ETS Allin 04/00047(E2) France 26-May-2009 ETS Allin 04/00048(E2) France 26-May-2009 ETS Allin 04/00049(E1) France 26-May-2009 Etablissements Guy Joubert SA (Holding) 03/00078(E1) France 05-Aug-2013 Etablissements Guy Joubert SA (Holding) 03/00079(E2) France 05-Aug-2013 Ets Burguet 02/00017(E1) France 04-Mar-2012 Ets Burguet 02/00018(E1) France 04-Mar-2012 Ets Burguet 02/00019(E1) France 04-Mar-2012 Malvaux Industries 98/00148(E3) France 28-Dec-2013 Plysorol Europe 10/00001 France 04-Jan-2015 Deutsche Holzveredelung Schmeing GmbH & Co 08/00044 Germany 29-Sep-2013 Rochling Haren KG 02/20031(E1) Germany 18-Jul-2012 F.A. Mourikis S.A. 05/00052 Greece 18-May-2010 Shelman S.A. 93/00022(E2) Greece 07-Feb-2008 Shelman S.A. 93/00051(E3) Greece 08-Mar-2014 B.S. Progressive Pvt. Ltd. 07/00064 India 11-Sep-2012 Compensati Toro S.p.A. 05/00038 Italy 28-Mar-2010 Samling Plywood (Baramas) Sdn Bhd 00/00089(E1) Malaysia 03-Jul-2010 CEMA Bois de L'Atlas 93/00109(E3) Morocco 05-Aug-2009 Javor-Pivka 91/00184(E4) Slovenia, Republic of 12-May-2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Anything coming from this area of the world should be highly questioned and carefully scrutinized. Lloyd's doesn't certify plywood any more, so the BS 1088 standard is a purely voluntary classification now. I've seen some nice stuff come out of China, but also an equal amount of real crap too, with the same BS 1088 markings, which leads one to believe that the quality controls that exist elsewhere in the world, still do not in China. This is clearly born out in many other products coming from there. This isn't the only place on earth that is selling crap and attempting to pass it off as the good stuff, but in all honesty, it is a place that consistently attempts to do so. So, if you find some BS 1088 marked stock, at seemly ruinously low prices, you've been warned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwolstenholme Posted February 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 I think Lloyds does certify plywood. I have pulled up the a list of active BS1088 certificates listed above. I know for sure that Joubert is Lloyds certified. A copy of the certificate is on every crate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Certification labels appearing on plywood only mean they supposedly meet the BS 1088 standard, not that Lloyd's has an active inspection system. Joubert use to be Lloyds certified, they (Lloyds) do not certify plywood any more, though Joubert's products still meet the construction and quality standards of this previous certification level (BS 1088, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisObee Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I think its the old story here. If its too good to be true... In today's market its still the best strategy to buy from established brands with a history of excellence and folks with whom you have an active relationship. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Frechette Jr Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Anything coming from this area of the world should be highly questioned and carefully scrutinized. .... I've seen some nice stuff come out of China, but also an equal amount of real crap too, with the same BS 1088 markings, which leads one to believe that the quality controls that exist elsewhere in the world, still do not in China. Hah! It isn't lack of quality controls I fear so much from Chinese Goods nearly so much as rank fraud and dishonesty and complete disregard for life safety! Lets see, Melamine in pet food in milk.. Why? So it can fool quality control tests and make more money and who cares that it kills the customers and their pets! Cadmium in Jewelry. So what if it is dangerous,. its cheap and easy to work and make pretty!! Coal fly ash in sheetrock with high sulfur content. Its cheap, it gets rid of the ash , so what if it causes illness and corrodes plumbing and electrical infrastructure in the home! Lead in paint and toys etc... Cheap rules supreme! Make something flashy that sells and make it just as cheap as possible . Who cares what the consequences are! That is an entirely different issue than a companies quality control measures not being up to snuff and some sub standard good making it through form time to time. Frankly it is hard to trust anything out of China not having hidden health hazards anymore. Any time I can buy something not made in China I make that choice even if it does cost a few bucks more. And for a boat? Something you are going to trust your life and your families life to the structural integrity too? I wouldn't even ask the question myself if there was an alternative choice from a reputable manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 It's not just China, many "western rim" as well as a few eastern European countries have serious "standards" issues and should be considered suspect. Known sources are the only good bet (as usual). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 It's not just China, many "western rim" as well as a few eastern European countries have serious "standards" issues and should be considered suspect. Known sources are the only good bet (as usual). I could not agree more with both you and Ray. When I was growning up and early adult hood, we knew our foods must come from the USA to be really safe, and many products as well. Then soup companies started adding processed bases from China and elsewhere and now the canned soups all taste the same and not very good either. Who knows what chemicals are actually in our foods or clothing? Certainly not what is suppose to be there. The USA for the most part really obeys the rules, signs treaties with other countries, who completely ignore the treaty they just signed. I refuse to buy anything from China or overseas if possible, and then try to make sure if it does come from there, that it really is what it is suppose to be......nearly impossible really. Sigh. I may learn to weave next, and a garden is in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Socko Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 Careful with the garden. Once you get used to fresh produce you will never go back. I was looking at air tools at the Sears store today and even the Craftsmen tools I was looking at were from China. I trust nothing from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwolstenholme Posted February 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 Attached is a copy of the Lloyds certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LeeH Posted February 15, 2010 Report Share Posted February 15, 2010 It's hard to know what you are buying or where it's from these days, even if you do pay top dollar. Take Bosch tools for example. Many of em aren't made in Switzerland anymore. At least in that case, you could suppose the company is providing superior training and supervision at the Chinese factory. But how can you be sure? (You can't). I've used some Joubert okume 1088 ply, and it couldn't be better. But what's to keep them from moving that production to China? I, for one, am hopeful of some kind of resurgence of the "Made in USA" movement. I said "hopeful," but I'm not holding my breath. And I agree, I'll pay more for an American product every time, if I can just find one. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 "Lloyd's doesn't certify plywood any more, so the BS 1088 standard is a purely voluntary classification now" Par, I've questioned this myself about Lloyds not certifying plywood anymore, but I can't find any mention of this anywhere on the web. Where did you find this? regards Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Hah! It isn't lack of quality controls I fear so much from Chinese Goods nearly so much as rank fraud and dishonesty and complete disregard for life safety! Lets see, Melamine in pet food in milk.. Why? So it can fool quality control tests and make more money and who cares that it kills the customers and their pets! Well, the Chinese are pretty strict about this ... they executed two of the people involved in the scandal. There were six deaths according to that Wikipedia article. We avoid as much food as we can from foreign countries (it is common here to get produce from Mexico and South America). We buy most of our produce now at the Farmer's Market (my wife works for the State Ag Department, and she actually knows which of the vendors are farmers and which ones have bought their produce at the supermarket!) I guess noticing the quality creep is a sign of getting old; I remember my Dad complaining about the same thing. Its one thing when you are talking about a tee shirt, but quite another when its something that is a safety issue like boat building plywood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Well this nearly 2 year old thread might need a revisit Mark. A few years ago I read that Lloyds stopped their active certification program, which I'll assume was manufacture inspection and sample submission. The BS-1088 standard still applies, but is much like the APA grading system in the USA, a voluntary agreement to conform to standards, among the manufactures. Naturally, any industry that self polices has to be questioned, but it does work in reputable locations. For example I was on a site doing some electrical work, when representatives of Georgia Pacific showed up and demanded the OSB delivery the contractor had just received. They'd found a bad glue batch and physically went to each site, supplier and purchaser and grabbed all the material from this bad glue lot. The contractor knew something was wrong, because the glue was the wrong color and glue was visible all over the exterior of the sheets. He would have used it anyway, but the GP guys showed up with a stop order. They couldn't afford the law suits or the damaged reputation, so did the appropriate thing. This is fairly typical of reasonable manufactures insuring some level of QC, if only to save their butts from law suits. This said and again, there are several areas of the world where this sort of thing just doesn't occur or worse, propagation of intentionally mis-badged product. Back to Lloyd's, I can't remember where I read it, but remember it was a trade publication, not the web. The time I read it was about when the world's economy took a dump and maybe this was a cost cutting measure, but I'm speculating now. I would think Lloyd's would happily provide and answer. Maybe I send off an email in the next week or so. In countries like your's and our's, it's easy to become complacent and take things for granted. We've already learned why there has to be regulatory agencies, over seeing executive boards, looking to marginally improve their bottom line with short cuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 It's hard to know what you are buying or where it's from these days, even if you do pay top dollar. Take Bosch tools for example. Many of em aren't made in Switzerland anymore. At least in that case, you could suppose the company is providing superior training and supervision at the Chinese factory. But how can you be sure? (You can't). The problem with Bosch tools is that the company was bought out by a US company. I've used some Joubert okume 1088 ply, and it couldn't be better. But what's to keep them from moving that production to China? Nothing, but my experiences with Joubert leads me to believe they are very much interested in the integrity of their product. I, for one, am hopeful of some kind of resurgence of the "Made in USA" movement. I said "hopeful," but I'm not holding my breath. And I agree, I'll pay more for an American product every time, if I can just find one. :-? I am not holding my breath either because it is the U. S. business people who are outsourcing work to substandard production facilities around the world because it is cheaper. I am as patriotic as the next guy, but the U. S. is as corrupt as anywhere when it comes to making a buck. And when it comes to signing treaties we surely do not have the best track record. Just ask Joseph of the Nez Perce or Sittiing Bull of the Sioux or the leadership of any indigenous peoples who were in the way of land we (USA) decided we wanted or had rights to. Greed is universal. It is a world economy. The problems will not be solved until we learn to solve it as a world community, until individuals choose to live by a standard themselves before expecting any government or organization to do it for them. In the mean time, let's build and talk about boats. Let's recommend products and manufacturers we trust out of experience, regardless of what country they are from. Let's warn each other about bad products regardless of where they come from or why we think they are bad. We do better avoiding disagreements and heated discussions when we concentrate on the fun topic that brought us all here. After all, we (Messing About forum members) are a world community Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyster Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 In the mean time, let's build and talk about boats. Let's recommend products and manufacturers we trust out of experience, regardless of what country they are from. Let's warn each other about bad products regardless of where they come from or why we think they are bad. We do better avoiding disagreements and heated discussions when we concentrate on the fun topic that brought us all here. After all, we (Messing About forum members) are a world community Gee after you have just finished trashing the country at large? Greed begins at the tip of everyones noses, looking for the best prices of whats avaliable, and when the quality is found lacking wise up the next time around. Its as natural as the wood that went in the one and only true wood boat built by Noah. [insert a big grin] The rest is considered new growth or second plantings. HEHE! I am not holding my breath either because it is the U. S. business people who are outsourcing work to substandard production facilities around the world because it is cheaper. I am as patriotic as the next guy, but the U. S. is as corrupt as anywhere when it comes to making a buck. And when it comes to signing treaties we surely do not have the best track record. Just ask Joseph of the Nez Perce or Sittiing Bull of the Sioux or the leadership of any indigenous peoples who were in the way of land we (USA) decided we wanted or had rights to. Greed is universal. It is a world economy. The problems will not be solved until we learn to solve it as a world community, until individuals choose to live by a standard themselves before expecting any government or organization to do it for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dunsworth Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 I worked for one of the largest aluminum companies in the world for 33 years and know first hand about their integrity. It sucked bad!! We had OS standards we were to go by. More times than not those standards would be checked off as completed when they were never done. Management was left to it's own integrity to see that these standards were met. Many would skip over them and just get the line running again. But if a outsider would do an audit of the process you would see by the paper work everything was completed by operating standards. I watched them entertain customers and fill them with BS. By the way while the customer was watching on a visit to our plant was the only time you could be absolutely positive OS would be followed. In all fairness I worked with some supervisors that did the right thing, always.They were never popular with upper management. But they were a dieing breed. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Funny you should say that Scott. Last week I rang "Engineer Woods Australia" also known as Australian Plywoods Assoc. and asked why Gabbon plywood is not allowed under AS2272 standard for marine plywood. They emailed back with the response" Not sufficiently durable for exterior use and difficult to impregnate with preservatives" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceansky Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just curious Scott, how often did they audit.? Here in Oz, the EWA audit the plywood companies every 6 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dunsworth Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 We would have a couple a year by employees from another company location. It was kind of you scratch my back and I'll scratch your when we come to your location to do an audit. The outside audits for IOS standards were done in my department once a year or so. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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