Quick and Dirty Build...Princess 22

[Norman Colter]

I agree.  But to the specific of the P22. Not a hurry up and get on the water boat. Took me better than two years of all my spare time and I put her in the water unfinished. It took a weekend to seal everything inside.

[Oyster]

The Princess is a lot of boat. I was naive and thought I didn't need to coat everything too. I'm glad that I did have the foresight to coat everything that would be difficult to do later. As I'm finishing the cabin insides everything is getting sealed with epoxy. I haven't saved any time.

My current build calls for 10 oz glass inside and out so not finishing isn't an option. And I'm not in a rush.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't coat any wood that you wish to coat.

I'm just saying that you don't have to.

As to resale, you will never get out what you put in.

It's a wonderful thing to see a boat that someone has meticulously built to the highest standards. For my part I'd rather spend the time on the water.   My next boat's name will be Dilligaff.

This is just not true in the case of building with Occume plywood. Forget about selling. There are just too many crevices for dampness and water to be trapped. Occume while using the proper glues, is used more for the weight and finish qualities along with having solid cores and boats being built to save weight needs all the wood it can get in smaller scantlings thats speced out for the boats.. In today's plywood, this too has chenged even in the 1088 stamp stuff. Occume soils , and the worse situation with it, it has a really bad tendancy to get black mildew like spots on the unfinished faces which is almost impossible to clean.

[Hirilonde]

I could spend a lifetime on one boat or I could build many in the same time.

I doubt it.  The difference in time cutting some corners saves is minimal.  It sounds like you had your mind made up before your post, so do as you choose, you don't need my approval.

[Wayne Jeffers]

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[John Turpin]

Looking for some ideas to quicken the Princess 22 build process.

I am first wondering if the interior could be oil finished to speed up the process?  

If the goal is speed, and not cost savings, I'd consider more helping hands instead of cutting back on epoxy.  A couple of buddies over a working weekend could apply a lot of epoxy to an interior.  One guy to do all the mixing and another to help inside.  Pizza.   Snacks.

[jawilco]

I don't see why you couldn't leave the cabin interior unfinished. I'd want the hull , stringers, cabin sole to be epoxy encapsulated, but I don't see any need to put anything at all on the berths, cuddy sides, or ceiling other than for looks. I think if I were to cover the interior  (meaning interior of the cuddy cabin ) at all I'd use a val spar polyurethane and be done with it. just my opinion.

So is there something I'm missing ?  Is there some structural need to have the cabin ceiling epoxied and painted ?

If the interior walls of the cabin have some structural need to be epoxy coated and painted, then so be it.

I doubt that that is the case, but it wouldn't be the first time I was incorrect.

BTW, Joe Nelson can sure stir a pot !

[Peter HK]

Most uncommonly for me I feel the need to make an aesthetic comment. Usually, I believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder BUT:

If you're going to do a quick and dirty build- why not pick a suitable design. The Princess 22 is a delightful little boat....charming and cute and a bit old worldy. People who build the Norwalk Island Sharpies should reconsider.

There are lots of boats suitable for quick and dirty- my avatar is my Bolger 30 ft folding schooner- flat bottomed, built with cheap ply, rough finished, fast, great fun and no one expects it to be a beautiful. Resale is irrelevent. A nicely finished one would be pointless.

FWIW and not intending to give offence, I feel a cheap and dirty Princess 22 would be a shame.

Cheers

Peter HK

[wkisting]

Not intending to stir the pot further, but I just read the thread and I'm confused... epoxy coating is not a slow process if you use a small micro-pore foam roller. It rolls on quickly and is so easy that you can do multiple coats in very little time (except curing time--but that's always in plenty unless you are unemployed or never sleep!). Even easier if you pre-coat the surfaces before assembly, when the sheets are still flat. I don't think it would be all that much quicker to spray an oil or varnish, and I know the epoxy coating is far more desirable not just from a seal-coat perspective, but also to reduce denting and scarring from impacts, scrapes, etc. The epoxy coating really makes the boat more user-friendly in so many ways--not just superior at preventing moisture intrusion.

I've built three boats now, and the first two taught me that cutting corners never saves time, effort, grief, or cost. It just postpones some of those things until later, and eventually, greatly amplifies them. On the CS20, we did everything to the highest standard we could achieve and it has been a perfect delight. The extra care didn't really add extra time during the process. Instead of cutting corners, we found better ways of doing things (like the foam roller for applying epoxy to large surfaces) and it rewarded us many-fold.

[Oyster]

While I am not a fan at using epoxy as buildup materials for clearcoating, epoxy coating the inside out of the intense abuse of the sun creates a more durable finish unlike varnish and oil, hands down not withstanding does stabilize the parts. I have been trying to think why I would ever consider doing a boat that is not some beginner hull and then skip a process after taking the time that it takes to build the boat in the first place. Each to their own for sure,,, But maybe some of these posts will help others decide for themselves too.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

I think a lot of you guys are in the text books too much (and I have them all).  I understand that to make plywood waterproof enough to keep water out of below water surfaces that you need 3 coats of epoxy.  I even am a fan of using glass on all exterior surfaces to assure a complete encapsulation.  I will even most likely glass the interior surfaces of the hull.  But I have had a cedar canoe that had one coat of epoxy to seal the wood.  Some areas mat looking and some areas glossy, due to the varying degree of absorption and wood grain.  It sat in the shop for two years without any ill effects.  In the same time, Okoume plywood has molded on the surface and turned black.  So you cant say that the shop is low humidity.  I think we use too much epoxy on interior surfaces just to be sure.  I cant imagine that one coat of sanded epoxy and then sprayed with epoxy primer and paint would not be sufficient against the elements of boat cabins.  I wont use fir plywood, so checking will not be an issue.   

I am not sure where I will head with this.  But I will look for shortcuts.  I spray all my System 3 primer and paint.  I have brad guns with stainless brads.  I tend to not clamp much, but rather shoot things together with brads and epoxy glue. 

I don't sell my boats, I use them.  Resale on these boats is ridiculously low anyway...even with craftsmanship quality work.  So forget the idea of resale.  Better off getting into emu's if you want to make money :grin:

CS 20

Welsford Sherpa

18' Tolman Standard with cuddy

20' Cedar Strip Canoe

[John Burritt]

You just made the point most of us were making.  Unsealed wood will mildue/mold.  Even one coat of epoxy will keep the inside looking good.  A couple coats and you wouldn't have to do anything else unless you wanted to.

[Oyster]

I think a lot of you guys are in the text books too much

Now thats funny, too funny for me anyway! especially when you also make the point that many have made in other posts.

Okoume plywood has molded on the surface and turned black

Yet you seem to be pushing the notion and your inference is that its not a big deal if a person leaves the interior of a boat that requires a lot of hours to build uncoated with the wood bare. Oh well, later, time to get the mould off my gills today.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

I hope you guys know that even in periods of heated discussion that I appreciate your comments and we can choose to disagree and still be friends.

I am wondering about thinning epoxy a bit and then spraying it?  The epoxy I am currently using is from Greer.  It is pretty thin.  Just cut it a little and it might spray pretty good.  Have to be careful about the sprayer you use and how hard it is to clean.  Then I would not care about how many coats it took.

[John Burritt]

Have you ever used CPES (clear penetrating epoxy)?  Sold by Jamestown Distributers (and I'm sure others).  Really soaks into the wood.  It would seal your inside surfaces and let you put about anything you want over it.  I'm too chicken and old-fashioned to use it on the outside or where water would accumulate, although they promote it as a rot inhibitor.  I'd be a bit leary about spraying.  You'd need to do a lot of back-checking to make sure you got good penetration, plus any time you save would probably be lost cleaning the gun.

One thing on the forum over which there is complete agreement is that we can pretty much disagree about almost anything.  The volume level goes up when there's a concern about the end product.  There's usually plenty of options to pick from - or trash completely.  Spent a good bit of time overhauling a Princess.  Good building on yours.

[Howard]

Spent a good bit of time overhauling a Princess.

Which Princess was that? If you don't mind, start a new thread on your overhaul.....or point me to and existing thread if I missed it.

I'd be interested in knowing what needed overhauling.

[Gordy Hill]

I don't think I'd spray epoxy without a SERIOUS respirator, especially inside a cabin!

I cut the yellow WEST foam rollers in half on the band saw and got 3-3 1/2 inch rollers that would put on a coat of epoxy before you could get set up to spray.

[Designer]

I have never understood this practice of priming wood by thinning epoxy. I guess that drilled into our psyche that we have to prime paint. With all barrier coating, the thicker the total coating is the more vapor proof it is. Boatbuilding epoxies are 100% solid, there are no solvents, the regular boatbuilding epoxies are thinned up to 10% with a diluent which is also 100% solid that allows them to be dispensed with pumps and makes it easier to wet out glass.

The bond between epoxy and wood is far stronger than the wood, we trust it to hold out taped seams together. Why would we want to compromise our coating with a solvent based epoxy which evaporates out of the coating while it is curing, leaving a porous sub strength membrane?

I also can't imagine spraying the stuff. I agree with Wes's approach to roll multiple coats one after the other.

[wkisting]

Just for clarity's sake, I don't disagree at all that a single coat of epoxy, followed by primer and paint, CAN be more than sufficient to protect an interior. (I thought the original issue was that you might skip the epoxy step altogether, which I do not recommend.)

However, once you accept that a single coat of epoxy is wise, you may as well invest the minimal extra effort and cure time to add a second and third epoxy coat. The reasoning is not that it necessarily takes "three coats" of epoxy to adequately waterproof, but because you need to build up sanding thickness so that, when you sand before the primer, you don't simply remove or compromise the epoxy barrier you've just put down. Also, rolling on a single coat of epoxy can miss a few areas or "undersaturate" the wood. The additional coats serve as a safeguard to make sure a minimal level of epoxy thickness is established. Is three coats overkill? Often, the answer may indeed be yes, but that is precisely the point: to reach a reasonable level of overkill so that one can safely assume the barrier will remain adequately thick after you sand to apply a topcoat. (Also, don't discount what I said about durability. I've found Okoume to be a surprisingly soft wood, but it becomes significantly more resistant to dents and scuffs after three coats of epoxy. Varnish and paint help a bit, too, but not nearly as much as the hard epoxy.)

I've always followed the rule of three coats, but I think the absolute minimum is two coats--one to cover, another to ensure full coverage and to provide some sacrificial thickness to sand and prime (even then, use care not to sand too aggressively). We can all think of examples when someone ignored these guidelines and still managed to build a boat that lasted a long time. But that doesn't make it a sound practice; it just proves that some builders get lucky. For every one of those stories, there are hundreds of stories from builders who say they wish they had coated more carefully, and now have rot problems to fix.

[Craig]

When I built the Saralee I did not epoxy the cabin interior nor the inside of the seat lockers.  Just didn't really think about those areas getting wet.  They are not supposed to.  Anyway on the night of the wreck the cockpit was full to the rails and there was 6" or so of water in the cabin.  Every little piece of that CD2 ply that was not perfect wicked up water and began to raise.  By the time she had dried out she was a hell of a mess.  Foundering was the last thing I ever expected to happen.  Givein the cost in coin and labor that these boats require to build, coating the inside of everything is well worth the effort IMnotsoHO.  8-) 8-) 8-)

[steveb]

Joe,

could you please share some photos of your Tolman 18 with Cuddy as I am very keen to build something of that size. It needs to be tough enough to haul around Australia and easy to launch but able to handle some rough water.

size of motor preferred if you did it again and best and worst

and yes, I have THE book

thanks, Steve