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Quick and Dirty Build...Princess 22


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Looking for some ideas to quicken the Princess 22 build process.

I am first wondering if the interior could be oil finished to speed up the process?  Obviously everything below the berth tops in compartments should be sealed with epoxy.  I am wondering about spraying the rest of the interior with some kind of oil.  So much time can be spent on interior finish details. I would think that all the hull panels should be epoxy coated inside and out.  But the berth tops, inside cabin roof and side panels, inside companion way bulkhead above the cabin sole, etc. seem to be good candidates for this type of treatment.  Heck, so many boats get launched without finishing the interior of the cabins at all.  Looking back in history, this was a common procedure.  Or would you be better off to spray varnish to the subject area without coating with epoxy?  The Wagner HVLP $100 sprayers handle the system 3 paints very well and they are made for light viscosity material such as varnish.  Lee Valley also sells a cheap ventury feed compressed air sprayer that uses a glass jar for a reservoir and is easy to clean.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20048&cat=1,190,43034

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IMHO the name of the game is to keep moisture out of the wood EVERYWHERE.  Epoxy only on one side  doesn't do it.  Oiling/varnishing will be just as time-consuming as epoxying the inside.  With little UV penetration inside, a good smooth coat of epoxy inside wouldn't need to be overcoated.  A lot of the interior could probably be precoated, leaving only the attachment areas raw.  Also, oiling the inside will darken it.  I'd be looking for ways to brighten it.

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In the process of building the boat and when you are filleting and taping the components inside, its really simply to just coat the wood with a coat of the epoxy at the same time and its done. Of course it goes without saying, get all your surfaces clean before doing so and do most of your work on the inside before building and installing the cabin top in place.

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In the process of building the boat and when you are filleting and taping the components inside, its really simply to just coat the wood with a coat of the epoxy at the same time and its done. Of course it goes without saying, get all your surfaces clean before doing so and do most of your work on the inside before building and installing the cabin top in place.

But, the first coat of epoxy raises the fibers on the plywood surface.  This would need to be sanded and then recoated with a second coat to get a shiny finish.  I think one coat of epoxy would be about as ugly a solution as one could find.

In respect to the first reply, how can you spray on epoxy?  If you cannot, it is not as easy as spraying varnish or oil or paint. 

What about just spraying the interior with epoxy primer and paint without pre-coating with epoxy? 

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The initial work is done in one step, only requiring a scuffing up or so I have found to be the case. As noted, you can coat you parts or even the full sheet of plywood at one shot off the boat for the initial coating and sand and then cut and install the pieces thats already completely sanded. the burring is not that bad any different than sanding primers. Oil as noted will turn dark and in most cases collect dirt. If excessively done, some of the surfaces that you set out in the warm weather can stain you and the clothes that you also wear. Any bathing suit and wet towels or spills or even sitting drink cups on the surface will create the uglys.

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The initial work is done in one step, only requiring a scuffing up or so I have found to be the case. As noted, you can coat you parts or even the full sheet of plywood at one shot off the boat for the initial coating and sand and then cut and install the pieces thats already completely sanded. the burring is not that bad any different than sanding primers. Oil as noted will turn dark and in most cases collect dirt. If excessively done, some of the surfaces that you set out in the warm weather can stain you and the clothes that you also wear. Any bathing suit and wet towels or spills or even sitting drink cups on the surface will create the uglys.

So you think that one coat of epoxy and a quick sanding while flat on the workbench will be satisfactory as a base to spray primer and paint after the cabin is complete?

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In the build process, I think you should have a pretty good idea where flat panels (horizontal or vertical) are going to interface with a stringer, bulkhead, cleat, etc. Those interface areas are going to get the fillet / tape treatment. But in the middle, that is where your potential time and labor reside getting a flat epoxy coating.

By knowing where the future action is going to take place (either by measuring or fitting), you could tape those sections off with 2 inch wide painters tape, then before you install the panels, sand and epoxy coat while horizontal. The tape will come off easy enough as the epoxy is about to kick.....still somewhat liquid but no longer flowing. Once it sets up, sand smooth and get it ready to paint. Later on, if you find you messed up and missed it or need to add a spot, sand it off as needed. Not easy, but less work than doing all the large flat areas in place. And laid horizontal, you will get a much better finish.

BTW, I recently epoxy coated a plywood panel. To correct some rough spots on one side, I sanded before I epoxy coated and it came out smooth on the first try. The other side, I didn't sand prior to coating and it had the raised grain, rough finish after one coat. Something to consider.

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Let me clear up my statement pertaining to coating sheets of plywood. Its quite possible that you will need a couple of coats in the initial coatings. The important thing that I keep in mind is to seal the wood grain which is easy to see when you are beginning to coat the wood. Not only do you ger the burrs, you will begin to see bare areas depending on the grain on each sheet that may need additional coats after a bit. But the advantage with the epoxy is that you can hot coat multiple coats or even spot coat the bare areas which may need some feathering out of the edges when it dries. So you may as well recoat the whole surfaces, even though you will use a bit more material. But afterall its a boat which will be in the water and you will surely be pouring money in it anyway. So accept the forgone conclusion early on.

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Looking for some ideas to quicken the Princess 22 build process.

I am first wondering if the interior could be oil finished to speed up the process?  Obviously everything below the berth tops in compartments should be sealed with epoxy.  I am wondering about spraying the rest of the interior with some kind of oil.  So much time can be spent on interior finish details. I would think that all the hull panels should be epoxy coated inside and out.  But the berth tops, inside cabin roof and side panels, inside companion way bulkhead above the cabin sole, etc. seem to be good candidates for this type of treatment.  Heck, so many boats get launched without finishing the interior of the cabins at all.  Looking back in history, this was a common procedure.  Or would you be better off to spray varnish to the subject area without coating with epoxy?  The Wagner HVLP $100 sprayers handle the system 3 paints very well and they are made for light viscosity material such as varnish.  Lee Valley also sells a cheap ventury feed compressed air sprayer that uses a glass jar for a reservoir and is easy to clean.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20048&cat=1,190,43034

I don't see why you couldn't leave the cabin interior unfinished. I'd want the hull , stringers, cabin sole to be epoxy encapsulated, but I don't see any need to put anything at all on the berths, cuddy sides, or ceiling other than for looks. I think if I were to cover the interior at all I'd use a val spar polyurethane and be done with it. just my opinion.

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With all of the time and money that goes into building a boat, especially the larger P22, I couldn't even entertain the idea of doing less than the most complete job of any and all phases of the project, especially epoxy coating.  The savings is minimal and the loss later is great.  I think you will find Joe, that none of the experienced boat builders/refitters in this forum will help you justify short cuts.  If you must save time and/or money then leave the interior spartan, but protected.

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Looking for some ideas to quicken the Princess 22 build process.

I am first wondering if the interior could be oil finished to speed up the process?  Obviously everything below the berth tops in compartments should be sealed with epoxy.  I am wondering about spraying the rest of the interior with some kind of oil.  So much time can be spent on interior finish details. I would think that all the hull panels should be epoxy coated inside and out.  But the berth tops, inside cabin roof and side panels, inside companion way bulkhead above the cabin sole, etc. seem to be good candidates for this type of treatment.  Heck, so many boats get launched without finishing the interior of the cabins at all.  Looking back in history, this was a common procedure.  Or would you be better off to spray varnish to the subject area without coating with epoxy?  The Wagner HVLP $100 sprayers handle the system 3 paints very well and they are made for light viscosity material such as varnish.  Lee Valley also sells a cheap ventury feed compressed air sprayer that uses a glass jar for a reservoir and is easy to clean.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20048&cat=1,190,43034

I don't see why you couldn't leave the cabin interior unfinished. I'd want the hull , stringers, cabin sole to be epoxy encapsulated, but I don't see any need to put anything at all on the berths, cuddy sides, or ceiling other than for looks. I think if I were to cover the interior at all I'd use a val spar polyurethane and be done with it. just my opinion.

Sounds like something that would come from a Tolman guy :grin:  We are a different breed.  I was kinda thinking about just spraying val spar on the interior.  Do a quick sand and recoat again.

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Looking for some ideas to quicken the Princess 22 build process.

I am first wondering if the interior could be oil finished to speed up the process?  Obviously everything below the berth tops in compartments should be sealed with epoxy.  I am wondering about spraying the rest of the interior with some kind of oil.  So much time can be spent on interior finish details. I would think that all the hull panels should be epoxy coated inside and out.  But the berth tops, inside cabin roof and side panels, inside companion way bulkhead above the cabin sole, etc. seem to be good candidates for this type of treatment.  Heck, so many boats get launched without finishing the interior of the cabins at all.  Looking back in history, this was a common procedure.  Or would you be better off to spray varnish to the subject area without coating with epoxy?  The Wagner HVLP $100 sprayers handle the system 3 paints very well and they are made for light viscosity material such as varnish.  Lee Valley also sells a cheap ventury feed compressed air sprayer that uses a glass jar for a reservoir and is easy to clean.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20048&cat=1,190,43034

I don't see why you couldn't leave the cabin interior unfinished. I'd want the hull , stringers, cabin sole to be epoxy encapsulated, but I don't see any need to put anything at all on the berths, cuddy sides, or ceiling other than for looks. I think if I were to cover the interior at all I'd use a val spar polyurethane and be done with it. just my opinion.

Sounds like something that would come from a Tolman guy :grin:  We are a different breed.  I was kinda thinking about just spraying val spar on the interior.  Do a quick sand and recoat again.

You just keep building Joe.

Rules are for breaking and you learn more outside of the box.

Play with your food, and run with scissors !!!

( I'm feeling rebellious today ! :grin:)

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Joe, there is absolutely no one that has joined this forum that has subscribed to the notion that you have conveyed to us other than me that I know of. I have altered, cut corners, used boats while still needing details. But i will tell you one thing here and now. The steps thats involved and the time consumed and even the materials used in epoxy coating the interior is peanuts when building the Princess hull.  But if you also plan on selling the boat and quickly building another one so that you can use that one also, a run down shotty looking boat that has been oiled inside will probably bring you a lot of grief while attempting to peddle the boat for a decent dollar amount. One of the reasons is that the competition of so many other hulls out there is tremendous in numbers and even in equipment to be had at peanuts on the dollars too. You can only build the hull so spartan, as most of the components in the boat also double as making the boat a sound hull. Now go forth and find somthing else to scrimp on and not the coating of the interior components with epoxy or a good quality primer on parts thats not part of the structual tabs which requires epoxy. Sorry, I see no savings in the overall skeem of building this boat from the standpoint of watching one built that took three years of doing on a pretty regular basis.

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The Princess is a lot of boat. I was naive and thought I didn't need to coat everything too. I'm glad that I did have the foresight to coat everything that would be difficult to do later. As I'm finishing the cabin insides everything is getting sealed with epoxy. I haven't saved any time.

My current build calls for 10 oz glass inside and out so not finishing isn't an option. And I'm not in a rush.

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The Princess is a lot of boat. I was naive and thought I didn't need to coat everything too. I'm glad that I did have the foresight to coat everything that would be difficult to do later. As I'm finishing the cabin insides everything is getting sealed with epoxy. I haven't saved any time.

My current build calls for 10 oz glass inside and out so not finishing isn't an option. And I'm not in a rush.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't coat any wood that you wish to coat.

I'm just saying that you don't have to.

As to resale, you will never get out what you put in.

It's a wonderful thing to see a boat that someone has meticulously built to the highest standards. For my part I'd rather spend the time on the water.  My next boat's name will be Dilligaff.

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Drats, I thought I could stay anonymous wrt this topic, oh well...

With all of the time and money that goes into building a boat, especially the larger P22, I couldn't even entertain the idea of doing less than the most complete job of any and all phases of the project, especially epoxy coating.  The savings is minimal and the loss later is great.  I think you will find Joe, that none of the experienced boat builders/refitters in this forum will help you justify short cuts.  If you must save time and/or money then leave the interior spartan, but protected.

Joe, is it correct that you built a CS20 and now beginning a P22? If so then Hirilondë makes a key observation above and I would add that the P22 compared to the CS20 might be at least double the financial cost and at least 2x if not maybe 3x the manhours investment.  I would get it if you built a CS20 and was looking for "quick and dirty" ideas in building maybe a Bay River Skiff. But not the other way around.

IMNSHO skimping on the build quality of the P22 might give you a boat that has a value that's substantially less than a poorly built CS20. All advice to the contrary - it's still your money and your time we're all talking about here - but you did ask for input after all.

Okay, next issue...

I've only built one boat....Not sure how experienced that makes me, but there's fodder for discussion.

The cuddy of my boat has portions that are epoxy covered, some painted, some bare wood. So far there's no noticeable difference in wear.The experiment continues. If something does go tits up, I'll cut it out and replace it. That to me is part of the wonder of epoxy

I visited Brad Story a couple years ago. Brad is the fellow who had Phil Bolger design Chebacco. He knows a thing or two about boats thru his business and his dna.

He asked me aboard to take a look. I was delighted and full of anticipation as to what I might find. What I found was an interior that was wood. No paint, no epoxy, no nuthin', 'cept for a photo hanging on the wall. His view was "why does it need paint ?".

The exterior was painted lapstraked marine plywood. It wasn't epoxy coated. Looked like it was holding up just fine. 

There's room for different ways of doing things when you're building a boat.  Everyone's different, so are their boating needs.

jawilco's experience is clearly valid, his argument is correct, except that to me it doesn't really apply in this case. But I believe there's as much about it (especially the Brad Story references) that's unspoken but deserves attention, especially for readers with little or no epoxy/ply building experience as applies to lightweight boats.  Sorry if this gets long winded...

Firstly, without regard for type of boat, but rather the type of construction -- there's a very real difference between boats designed for traditional fastening versus boats designed to utilize the 'wood epoxy saturation technique' aka WEST system. Super simplified, the former has scantlings where the wooden parts need to be thick enough so that the mechanical fastenings (bolts, screw threads, etc) can carry the loads from one member to another. Whereas for the latter, it is the epoxy-glued surface area between various components that is carrying the structural loads. That fundamental difference is what allows light weight boats to be built.

Secondly, Brad Story building (and the late Phil Bolger doing the design of) the Chebacco is doing so much more as a traditionally engineered boat with scantlings appropriate for that method. It is just plain inappropriate to compare those boats to w.e.s.t. based designs (like the B&B type boats).  Please don't get upset with my critique of a Story-built boat, to the contrary - I know that yard well, from 25 to 35 years ago, and I know and appreciate the wonderful boats that have gone down the ways at the Story yard. It's not his building of a boat, but the difference in the types of boats that I'm talking about.

Suffice it to say that a 20' boat that uses 3/4" ply for planking is just not close to being the same type of boat as one that uses 1/4" ply.

Changing gears here... the degree of checking in plywood depends greatly on the quality of the plywood - more so than the coating being applied or the technique used. Of course you can overcome low quality plywood by adding coats of epoxy and sanding and coating again - but by then you've spent more money and time than high quality Okume/Meranti.

Lastly...

As I see it, the reason for coating is to reduce, as much as possible, the water absorbed by the boat for the reasons of (1) longevity (rot due to fresh water) and (2) structural integrity (maintaining the moisture content at the point of maximum strength of the materials).

Some interesting tests of the effectiveness of various coatings in controlling water absorbtion can be found here http://www.epoxyproducts.com/woodseal.html with some important basics here  http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

Good luck with the P22 Joe,

TomH

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