Inertia

[griphos]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the board, and fairly new to sailing as well.  So a little introduction before my question.  (For those who want to skip the blather and get to the question, go to the little ******s). 

I've been reading the board for some time.  Lots and lots of really useful information here (some of it archived on my laptop for future reference!!).  I've also been a furniture maker and construction worker (no longer for hire) and have long admired wooden boats.  Did I say admire?  I meant lusted after in a way that isn't, most likely, entirely healthy.  I don't want to tell you how old some of my magazines and books on wooden boats are.  But I never got around to sailing.  Always wanted to, never did.  It's funny how some things just seem so alien if you don't know anyone who does them. 

Not long ago, though, a friend bought an Ensign and has been teaching me to sail on it while I'm helping him recondition it, particularly the woodwork.  This lit a fire under my age-old desire to build a boat.  In the meantime, having gotten the whole family bit hard with the sailing bug, I bought a used DaysailerII that was up for sale locally and have been sailing it in the area lakes (Central Texas) so I can sail while I figure out what boat to build.  I go out every chance I get and have been learning a lot.  That's about the sum of my experience: a nice keel boat that's comfortable and roomy, and a decent cb daysailer that's a bit coltish (and, I think, sluggish, but what do I know) but teaches me a lot.

So, I've been researching and thinking hard about what boat design to build.  I've always admired the Haven 12.5, both for it's beautiful lines and reputation, but I don't want to build a carvel boat, and I will need the boat I build to be easily trailerable (on shallow ramps) including stepping the mast(s), and perhaps just a bit roomier (like I said, I got the whole family involved...wife, two kids, mom, sister, her daughter....).  So, something that fits four comfortably is a goal.  I've also always admired the Oughtred designs, again for their traditional lines.  But I know almost nothing about them, and they don't seem to be a design that offers a lot of comfort or dryness (very low freeboard it seems to me). 

Then, a few months ago, I came across Graham's designs while learning about these wild races I kept hearing about (I wish I could have done the Texas 200...maybe next time).  They seem to offer a great deal.  Very interesting performance envelope, nice stability, wonderful rig, and the new kit for the CS17 has come pretty close to cinching the deal for me.  I like woodworking, but the advantages of such precisely cut parts for a first time boat builder are very impressive, from what I've carefully read here.  (The Lapwing is also very seductive, with her traditional lines and that lovely clinker hull....if only she were just a little bigger....).

But, I have very little experience with sailing very many boats, and this breeds some caution in me. 

*******

And, (you thought I'd never get to the question, didn't you?) since the only cb experience I have is the DSII, I'm wondering if her characteristics are typical for cb boats in general.  And the one I'm most talking about (no, not capsizing!, I'm comfortable sailing on my beam end if the need arises) is inertia.  By which I mean the ability to gather way and lose it.  The Ensign, a very heavy boat for its size, is decent about moving out in a light breeze.  Decent.  But all that weight sure comes in handy when it's time to tack, or even just maintain course and speed between the gusts.  The DS I have (and this could be my woeful sailing skills and not the boat) will move under the lightest zephyr if pointed right, but will also just die a sudden death when depowered for whatever reason.  That makes her slow up considerably while tacking (those dreaded irons), and I can't tell you how many times I've thought I was coming in to the dock way too hot only to wind up bobbing head to wind 20 feet out, having to back the sail and gather way and looking like an idiot.  In the same conditions, the Ensign would have been ON the dock.  This may all just be simple physics, after all.  But I'm wondering if there are differences between cb designs in this regard and whether those who have sailed the CS boats have thoughts about this aspect of their performance.

So, what say you all?  I've searched through the archives, but haven't found any discussion of this (perhaps I didn't use the right keywords, because I've found discussions for just about every other question I've had). 

Thanks for any thoughts.

Phil

[PAR]

As Ray has pointed out, light boats are easily stopped. A small wave can slap you back in a light planning dinghy.

Most small centerboard craft are lightly built, but they don't have to be. Typical design considerations for a centerboarder would be more beam, stiffer bilges and the requirement that the crew be more "proactive" in keeping the boat on it's feet. Most centerboard boats, don't sail well on their "ear", preferring to remain upright. A beamer boat will generate nasty manners when grossly distorted waterline shapes develop as a result of excessive heel. This said, a boat can have a centerboard, narrow beam and like sailing on it's beam ends. The design process is fraught with difficult, convoluted concessions in compromise. This means you could have a boat that relies mostly on beam and crew participation to keep her upright in a press or you could go the other way and design a craft that uses less beam and a ballasted centerboard to maintain reasonably acceptable stability.

Most boats fall more on one side of this coin then the other, with initial stability or ballasted stability, but exceptions exist, where the beam and ballast are moderate. All board boats use elements of off both concepts.

[Tom Lathrop]

Ray and Paul both have good points but I have sailed all the boats you mention.  An Ensign is a heavy full keel boat and does not tack particularly fast.  A good thing it has momentum since it must be sailed around without too much rudder to act as a brake.  I started racing one a couple years ago and found that I had to keep this in mind to avoid loosing too much speed in a tack.  The O'day Daysailer is in between with more weight and momentum than a Core Sound but with a centerboard so it can pivot much more sharply than the Ensign. 

Core Sound boats are light and tack fairly well but not nearly so well as a good small racing sloop.  It is not the hull or the foils that cause them to tack slowly but the rig.  Cat ketches have many many great features that make for an ideal daysailer but quick tacking is not one of them.  The big sails at the ends of the boat just naturally slow it down in a tack compared to one large sail near the center (pivot point) of the boat and a smaller jib forward.  In a good racing sloop like a Windmill, just slam the rudder over and the boat quickly turns around.  Same is true of even larger boats provided they have a short chord DB or CB and an outboard rudder. 

Tacking speed in a CS will be more like an Ensign than a Windmill even though it is a far lighter weight boat.  I would consider adding weight to a boat to give it more momentum to be a sin.

[griphos]

Well, as I expected, very helpful answers so far, and from three knowledgeable members.  I suspected that simple physics dictated the characteristics I was experiencing on the DS.  It's just that she will lose way so quickly, I'm even suspecting poor sail aerodynamics.  It's the original sail, I think (1973) and a bit baggy at the foot. 

Tom, I'm going to pass your observation about tacking the Ensign along to the fellow who owns it.  He's started racing his Ensign and is wanting to do better, and I don't think he's noticed the dynamic you mention.

By the way, when are you going to get that Lapwing in the water so you can tell us all how she sails?!

Ray, your description of getting out of irons on the CS sounds great.  I have spent a number of frustrating minutes backing the mainsail on the DS only to get close to pointing well enough to get under way and then losing rudder input and slipping back, particularly under mainsail alone.  By the way, very nice write-up on your boats in the most recent Small Boats.

There is one lapstrake version of the Haven 12.5, or close to it, that John Brooks is working on.  He calls it the Somes Sound 12 1/2.  He doesn't have the plans ready, but he's built the prototype and is doing a class on it this summer.  I don't know if it has a keel ballast like the Haven.  If so, I suspect it is there to affect the compromise Paul spoke of in the direction of stability, which, according to Tom, is a sin.    Cardinal or venal, Tom?  I'm a novice and haven't fully learned my marine catechism. 

Still, it seems that stability is not a problem on the CS, which seems to me to be one of the many, many nice features of the rig Tom mentions, since it's CE is much lower than a Marconi sloop, and even my DS.  Plus, the ability of the hull to translate force into planing rather than heeling has got to help a lot.  And I'm with Ray, not having yet gotten into racing, the FMG value is the one that matters most to me, and at least my wife finds that value increases in inverse proportion to the angle of heel.

Phil

[Dale Niemann]

Phil said "I have spent a number of frustrating minutes backing the mainsail on the DS only to get close to pointing well enough to get under way and then losing rudder input and slipping back".

Phil,

My second boat back in the early 70s was a Daysailor II.  On the DS II backwind the jib to help in tacking if necessary.  Everytime I pulled up on a beach shells would get into the CB and it would stick up.  I would then have to go underwater and pull it down. I loved the boat except the centerboard. I sold it for this one irritating problem.

The offset CB in my CS 17 "Lively" is only one of the reasons I love it.  I have never had a problem with it sticking up because of shells on the beach.  I usually hit the beach every time I am out.

Phil, I think you have a basic choice to make.  Do you want a weighted keel or a CB.  Where you live might help you make your choice.  I sail in very shallow waters and bays of Florida so a CB is best for me.  If you sail mostly in deep waters maybe you would like the weighted keel better.  I have sailed the Haven 12.5 and the original Hershoff (sp) boats at the WoodenBoat school in Maine.  They are great up there but nothing compared to a CS 17 for excitement and fun.

Dale

[griphos]

Thanks Dale for your comparison of the Haven and Herreshoff boats.  Could you tell me a bit more about the differences you find, and why the CS boats excel? 

As for the backing, the frustration usually occurs for me while getting underway (mostly my own still poor skills) before I raise the jib, and when coming in after dousing the jib but misjudging how quickly the DS will lose way and bobbing around far from the dock, not wanting to dig out the paddle.  I mean she seems to me to be barreling toward the dock at precipitous speeds, but when I luff the main, she just sits down and pouts!

But, I have perhaps wandered very far away from BandB topics here.  So any more thoughts you have comparing the Haven and the CS is appreciated.  I'm really probably 98% convinced on the CS (I can't tell you how many times in the last several weeks I've come within a whisker of whipping off the deposit check to Graham for the kit), but, like I said in my first post, my own inexperience makes me suspect my judgment and more cautious about the decision.  And, yes, that offset cb is one of the very appealing aspects of the design.

Another is that Graham doesn't appear to design a boat and then move on.  The picture he offered to Wes of his shock cord hatch fitting today shows that he's always tinkering with the design to improve it.  Then there is this board....maybe I'm 99%.

Phil

[brigait1]

I agree with Dale. On a sloop, if you back the main, it is going to tend to round you up into irons. If you are having a big problem tacking the DS, you should ease the main at the beginning of the tack. Keep the jib sheeted just until it gets backwinded for a second or two. The jib with pull you through the tack and with the main eased it wont be competing with the jib trying to bring the bow over. Then tack the jib and sheet the main and you're off.

On the Core Sounds, you get the same effect by easing the mizzen before the tack and backing the main for a second if needed.

All that said, during the Texas 200 we never had any trouble making a tack even in nasty, gusty, choppy conditions.

Another thing you might want to consider is the weight distribution in the boat. If you have too much crew weight forward, it can make tacking dang near impossible.

Pete B

[griphos]

Pete, this is very helpful info for a novice sailor such as myself.  Without the jib, I experience precisely this rounding up you mention.  And I did indeed have a good bit of the weight forward (in the form of passengers) when I was experiencing the most difficulty in making smooth tacks.  I've not learned either of these observations either from experience or the books yet.

Thanks.

Phil

[brigait1]

Phil, glad I could help. It took me quite a while to figure out some of the niceties of boat handling myself. I used to race on a lake that required a beat out of a narrow channel to get to the race course on the main lake. What I figured out there was that on a small sloop-rigged dinghy, there is no reason to strike the jib ever. You can just let it luff when you don't need it, but without it up you can't make it to weather worth anything. The reason for this is that the main is always trying to round you up into irons, and to compensate you have to use the rudder to try to fall off. These competing forces just make the boat stop. Next time you are in this situation, look at your rudder and you will see big swirling eddies coming off of it. Might as well throw a big anchor off your stern.

Now if you have the boat well balanced with the crew weight centered and both sails working together, you will notice that it takes very little pressure on the helm to get the boat to respond. If you're not sure how to get that balance, here's a good place to start. When you are beating to weather, ease your grip on the tiller and see if the boat wants to round up or fall off. If it wants to round up hard you have lot's of weather helm. This means you have one or more of the following problems; too much crew weight forward, jib eased too much or conversely main trimmed too much. If the boat wants to fall off, that's lee helm and the reverse sail and weight variables are true. In addition to sail and crew weight, lee helm can be caused by your centerboard not being all the way down. LEE HELM IS BAD :o. It can cause you real trouble in windy conditions.

Mess around with all these variables until you get just a little bit of weather helm when you let go of the tiller. Now you've got her dialed in. Then of course the conditions will change and you are back to square one... :-\

If you haven't been racing yet, I recommend it highly. Sure there can be some uber-competitive jackasses out there, but for the most part you will find very helpful skippers who are more than willing to share tips on boat handling. Plus, being near other boats that are trying to go fast gives you excellent feedback on what works and what doesn't when you tweak stuff.

As for choosing a Core Sound, I think you will be very happy with the performance. They are a great balance of performance and stability, and the FMG factor is very high.

Take care,

Pete

P.S.- My wife just asked what I was writing. When I told her, she said to include the following: "The pointy cloth part goes up". Very helpful woman, my wife...

[tom151]

...snip...

The CS 20 though short tacks the easiest of the bunch of them.

Not as close winded as the ODAY, but accllation out of the tack more than makes up for it.  Easiest boat I have ever short tacked in or out of that channel.

Ray, great feedback, thanks,

Would you say a little more if you have the data... comparing the compass readings from tack to tack going upwind what would the Oday give you between tacks versus what would the CS20 be able to give you.

Thanks a lot,

Tom

[griphos]

Yes, Pete, your wife seems to possess that universal wifely quality of cutting right to the heart of matters.  .

I think I have the helm balanced pretty well most of the time on the DS.  She has a fairly light weather helm at most times, but rounds up quickly if I let her go in a gust.  I found a "tuning" guide on the internet (lots of DS info on the net) and tweaked the stay tensions a bit.  But you are dead on describing the kind of maneuvers I've been experiencing when sailing under main alone.  That's a perfect description of how the rudder acts.  I'm going to start leaving the jib up pretty much at all times, as you suggest.  The only reason I was dousing her is new sailor jitters coming in or going out of a dock in a cb boat I don't still yet have much experience in. 

And as chance would have it, I'm racing for the first time this Wednesday.  Found a local sail club on the nearest of the nearby lakes and they race every Wed.  I'm going to crew this first time, to sort get the lay of the...ummm...ahhh...water, so to speak, but I'll probably have the DS in the thick of it before too long.  I also may get the chance to crew on the Ensign in the next few weeks. 

And I have been fairly pleased with how high the DS points.  I don't have a compass, but I might can get a hold of a hand-held one, if that would work at all, to measure headings on my tacks, Tom.  But from Ray's description, it seems as if the CS would definitely win for ease of single-handing.  I still haven't tried to single-hand the DS.  I'm sure I could, but with my rigging, I'd have to hold on to the jib sheet at all times.  The only cleats for them are on the front of the cb right at the cuddy, so too far to use when also at the helm.

And I love Ray's description of working through the bridge.  Wouldn't it be lovely to have a boat that makes for such crackerjack seamanship! 

Phil

[brigait1]

I've attached a few pics showing our GPS track from the Texas 200 overlaid on Google Earth. These pics show the only two times for the whole week that we had to beat to weather to get where we were going. In both cases it was less than perfect conditions for making the best headway. At the Padre Island Yacht Club we had a few sand dunes and buildings to windward that were chopping up the wind a bit. At Army Hole we were dealing with a shallow approach before the harbor, so we had the centerboard up a bit. So in and around-the-cans race situation I'd be willing to bet you could get a Core sound to tack through around 90 degrees pretty reliably. Maybe not quite as high as a dedicated racing sloop, but pretty close.

Pete

[Dale Niemann]

Phil,

Pete is right on.  I very very rarely sailed the DS without the jib.  When sailing up to a dock, just let it luff or fly if necessary.  Pete is also right in that racing will really help you become a better sailor.  I am not one that likes racing much but I have learned a lot from it.  I think the best thing racing did for me was to learn to sail in all kinds of weather.  Down here races are usually not cancelled unless a hurricane is coming.

I think the answer to your question about the differences between a Haven and a CS 17 is that the comparison is like apples and oranges.  A light weight centerboarder is just totally different from a weighted keel boat.  Actually, I think this is why you are having some of your problems with the DS.  You are sailing the keel boat and then the DS.  They react very differently.

Dale

[tom151]

I've attached a few pics showing our GPS track from the Texas 200 overlaid on Google Earth.

Pete

Pete, thanks a lot,

Really great to see actual data for evaluating upwind performance!

Both images (to my eyeballs) seem to illustrate a possible slight asymmetry in windward performance. Port tack might be a little closer winded than stbd, does that match with your sense of the way the boat handles? 

A few questions about your boat, if you'd be so kind...

Which side of the sail is the sprit... on your mainsail? the mizzen?

Do your masts rotate?  If so do they rotate equally?

Do sails have luff pockets, braided on, or sail tracks?

Is you c/board offset to port?

Does the boat tend carry more/less weather helm on one tack vs the other?

Any known asymmetries in the c/board or rudder? ...twist in the hull?

Any other possibilities come to mind?

Thanks much for posting the GPS tracks!

Tom

[brigait1]

Tom,

I'll try to answer as much as I can, but actually it was not my boat. The boat belongs to and was built by Tim Rinkevich who can give more complete answers. Tim, you out there???

First, I think any port vs. tack performance variation is more likely to be a function of the wind and water conditions we were in at the time. The winds were gusty and swirly when these tracks were recorded. Out in open water with clean wind, the boat seems to handle equally well on both tacks.

If I remember correctly, the main sprit is on the starboard side of the sail and the mizzen on the port. The sail attachment is luff pockets so rotating masts are a moot point. Boat seems straight with no twists or asymmetries. We were having some trouble with the snotter arrangement not being able to flatten the sails enough, so that could account for some performance inconsistencies.

Next time we take the boat out in clean wind, I'll try to get a track out in the open water over a stretch when there are no big wind shifts. I'll make a note of the wind direction just before taking the track. Then we'll have better data.

[tom151]

Tom,

Out in open water with clean wind, the boat seems to handle equally well on both tacks.

...snip...

We were having some trouble with the snotter arrangement not being able to flatten the sails enough, so that could account for some performance inconsistencies.

Next time we take the boat out in clean wind, I'll try to get a track out in the open water over a stretch when there are no big wind shifts. I'll make a note of the wind direction just before taking the track. Then we'll have better data.

Pete, thanks a lot for the extra details,

Your generous offer to collect more real data is appreciated - and extend my thanks to Tim for his cooperation.

Looking forward to hearing more - and hoping to hoist one with you guys for a real thank you some day!

Sincerely,

Tom