Jump to content

Core Sound Sailing Performance Question


wardm

Recommended Posts

I am considering building a Core Sound 17 and would like to learn more about the sailing performance that can be achieved from this design. I have searched the forum threads, and while there are plenty of comments about their great performance, I cannot find any numbers quoting the achievable boatspeed. Has anyone produced a table of boatspeed vs windspeed vs sailing angles like those polar diagrams that some yachts manufacturers produce?

How would it compare in performance to the trusty old TS16 (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/vintage/sbj/018/index.cfm)

Would the Coresound match the performance quoted on this page for the TS16 ?

"[Planing,] this boat can reach speeds of 12 to 14 knots on reaches and runs, often out performing boats up to 24 feet. With two crew swinging their weight outboard, you should plane on a broad reach in about 15 knots of wind."

I am looking for a versatile design that I can use in bays and rivers for camping and fishing with the family, but I don't want to build a slow boat. The TS16 is now a 30yr old design, and I would like to build something a little more modern that is fast and versatile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Being a 30 year old design does not necessarily mean that the TS16 is slow by modern standards.  Lots of much older boats are still very fast by any measure.  Take the 505, Flying Dutchman, Windmill, I14, plus many others and even the Laser is over 30 years old.

With 180 sq ft of sail area on a relatively light boat, the TS16 has approximately 50% more driving force than the CS17 so that has to have some effect.  I would expect the TS16 to be faster in moderate conditions and the CS17 might be as fast or faster in heavy wind, especially off the wind.  I've never seen or sailed a TS16 but your reference to a Catalina 22 and Daysailer II makes me think that both TS and CS are in the same ballpark much of the time.  That said, I am suspicious of claims of 15kts in any small non-spinnaker or non-trapeze boat of that vintage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

   I think I'm a pretty conservative sailor so I'm sure other (more skilled and experienced) people are going faster than I am.

   The best speeds I've recorded by gps (on a lake, no currents).  Are 9.1 knots on a broad reach in about 11-12 knots of wind with 2 people aboard and 8.9 knots on a broad reach with just me aboard.  I think the fastest I've ever gone was the last time I went out.  I was alone and the wind was gusty.  I had a couple of good gusts that had us solidly planing but I forgot the gps that day.

   I'm looking forward to getting out in more wind with somebody else to help me hold the boat down so I can do the double-digit thing.

   I find that I make better time to windward if I don't try to get as close to the wind as possible.  I try to keep the boat speed up (6 knots?) rather than point really high.

   I think I might be suspicious of a chart if it existed if only because these are fairly light boats and a lot would depend on the weight carried and how it was distributed.  I do know that I do  lot of smiling while I'm sailing whether the wind is blowing 3 knots or 20 and I feel pretty sure that I'll be able to get home if conditions change unexpectedly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Guys

Thanks for replying and sharing your thoughts and experience of the Core Sound. Planing in 12 knots of wind sounds pretty good. Also achieving ~9 knots boat speed in 11-12 knots of wind.

I notice the pictures of the CS17 on the B&B site that it appears to have battenless sails without any roach. Where as the EC 22 appears to have more powerful sails with more roach and battens. I am wondering if the CS17 was rigged with sails similar in design to that illustrated for the EC22 would it perform even better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Graham designed battened sails for the two Core Sound 20s in the Everglades Challenge, and they performed well.  He also put three reefs in them.  The only disadvantage in the battened sails (and the reason for the three reefs) is that you can't wrap the main around the mast and move the mizzen forward (in a blow or to row).  You can also add a mizzen staysail (works up to 30 degrees off dead downwind) for light and medium wind performance.

The battened sails performed well.  Three of the top five boats in the Everglades Challenge were B&B boats of the Core Sound family.  Two were literally just built and the crews had to learn the boats and gain faith in their abilities en route.  I was very happy with our boat's performance.  She was very fast and competent in the downwind and reaching days, and she did well in the two and a half days of tacking.  Downwind her bow was buoyant enough to never bury in 3-4 foot waves.  Beating, she was  wet due to her speed (when we hit a wave, the spray would be over the cockpit when it descended), and I am now building a dodger like the one Graham had on Green Heron.  I didn't have snowshoes when we were stuck in the mud, but I was able to sail her out with rudder and centerboard up, using the sails to steer.

Graham is very easy to work with.  I'm sure that he could design (and build) you a set of battened sails for a 17.  (Remember that he won the Everglades Challenge and set a record a couple of years ago in a 17 without battened sails. The same boat won the Core Sound races several years.)  The boat will not disappoint you either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My boat routinely chases down much larger plastic boats while pointing.  In the North Channel off Bayfield I found myself in the midst of a fleet of forty footers close hauled in a breeze.  None passed, and many were passed.  I did more tacks than most, but overall windward performance was acceptable. One of the skippers stopped by at the marina afterwards to inquire about the boat and explained the effort they went to in a failed attempt to catch me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest wwbaginski

I,ve got  drawings of battened and roached sails (one reef) for my Bay River Skiff 17 . Graham made the design  after studying Raid Finland conditions from RF website.  He was studying boat's qualities very precisely either, so I would expect that roached sails for CS17 are not exactly the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The full battened sails for the CS20 performed very well in all points of sail during our EC trail of them. I would expect the CS17 to benefit just as well with the full roach, full batten sails. We also loved the mizzen stays'l... A LOT. I found that in lighter air we could use the staysail in a very tight reach to pick up about 1-2 knots. The trick is to loosen the halyard and let the sail rotate back for higher pointing. This will result in higher sheet loads though and you'll have to crank on the sheet. You can use the mizzen sheet as a lever for the staysail sheet though. We use this technique all the time in cat sailing when you have to overstand a mark. On a cat like the I-20, first you drop the traveler. that helps a good deal. if you still can't make it, you let out the spin halyard about 3-4 inches and she rotates back into more of a big jib and you crank on the sheet.

We passed a Flying Scott just off the wind shortly after the start of the EC this year. I believe he had 4 people on board and I would guess we weighed about as much as him with a full store of water, gear and such. He was not flying a chute however and we had our staysail up.

Doug, I thought Green Heron had at least half battens. Definitely more roach than just the roller reefing sail. I think the 17 already has full batten sails available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 years later...

Hello to all.  I have different questions about performance.  My background is this.  My wife and I have sailed Wayfarer dinghy, mostly racing, for 14 years.  It is a good boat but when winds are 15 to 20 then the boat needs a lot of attention for wind and waves.  We want a boat we can weekend cruise and take for comfortable day sails.  We will be sailing mostly on Pamilco sound.( we live in Charlotte at moment)  Winds in the 15 to 20 mph range is normal along with 3-4 foot waves. I am considering a Coresound 17 or 20 Mk iii. 

 

My questions are as follows. 

 

1) In 15 to 20 knots of wind, how stable and or comfortable does the boat feel?  Does it require on the second attention?  Granted all boats must be sailed. 

 

2) It was mentioned above that going to windward was wet, more important, how balanced and settled does the boat feel in 15 to 20 knots of wind. 

 

3) Driving into waves, 3-4 feet, does the boat flex or oil can in any way?  I could feel my first Wayfarer flex as if being curled up when it drove into waves. It was a fiberglass Mk III.  Also it would  oil can. Both were irritating and slow.

 

4) Sailing to windward is a matter of trim and balance. Downwind is always more interesting.   A dinghy can feel light and unbalanced down wind.  It can be unsettling and if the boat begins to death roll  it can be a problem. There are ways to prevent this but it is still a somewhat nervous ride.  That I want to avoid. How do the core sound boats feel off the wind? 

 

My wife and I intend to cruise and most likely alone. It is important for us to feel we have a boat that we can handle in the common conditions without feeling we are on edge constantly.   I hope these questions make sense.    I would very much like to sail on a CS boat. Unfortunately will miss the event at B&B in October for a Charity Regatta.   I look forward to your responses.

 

Kind Regards 

Richard Johnson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,  Your questions address the exact reason I am building a CS 17.  I have sailed and raced, Enterprise, Sunfish, Laser, J24, Marshall Catboat, and numerous large and small craft.  The big attraction is reasonably good performance, and great crew of people who sail them, and easy rigging and retrieval.  Where else would you find this 

 

I made a non battened sail for the Enterprise just to tame it down for single handling.  Upwind the difference in pointing was negligible, as the slot with the jib remained constant combined with having a well cut sail (Sailrite cut and we assembled).  Downwind it was slower as the loss of the roach area exposed significantly less sail area.  

 

The best sailing boat I owned was a Herreshoff Goldeneye.  It was wet as heck going to windward in a chop as it went through the waves rather than over, but it was self bailing so we could just go on and on forever.  We were tired way before the boat was.  I suspect that the wetness in a CS is from the speed combined with shape of the hull slicing, rather than pounding through a chop.  With the Elvstrom bailer working it has got to be a win.  I am thinking of adding short battens as the rig will be on a track and not designed to wrap around, so reefing not a problem. 

 

Ultimately, it will come down to a well designed boat, combined with the craftsmanship of the builder and sailmaker.  

 

In my unofficial oil can test (yes, the Enterprise oil cans), there is no noticeable flexing of the hull.  It is quite stiff and under lots of tension.  

 

I am sure that official sailors of the CS will chime in as  I am at least a year away from actual launch.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience is entirely in the CS 20, but here are my observations:


 


1) In 15 to 20 knots of wind, how stable and or comfortable does the boat feel?  Does it require on the second attention?  Granted all boats must be sailed.   


 


I have sailed upwind and down in 15-20, often with one reef.  She is sweet and planing on most points of sail.  The 20 seems a little more stable (less like a dinghy) downwind.  She sails faster a little off the wind and there is less worry about gybing.


 


2) It was mentioned above that going to windward was wet, more important, how balanced and settled does the boat feel in 15 to 20 knots of wind. 


 


They can be wet to weather.  I built a dodger for the 20 and she was pretty dry after that.  I am finishing the 20 Mark III and expect it to be dry in these conditions.


 


3) Driving into waves, 3-4 feet, does the boat flex or oil can in any way?  I could feel my first Wayfarer flex as if being curled up when it drove into waves. It was a fiberglass Mk III.  Also it would  oil can. Both were irritating and slow.


 


There is plenty of rigidity in ann the CS designs.  NO oil canning.  Remember, wood is the original carbon fiber, and the marine plywoods are stiffer than plain old wood.  There is plenty of interior  and exterior reinforcement.  These were exactly the conditions for the start of the Everglades Challenge 2012 and she did fine (even dry to weather due to the dodger).


 


4) Sailing to windward is a matter of trim and balance. Downwind is always more interesting.   A dinghy can feel light and unbalanced down wind.  It can be unsettling and if the boat begins to death roll  it can be a problem. There are ways to prevent this but it is still a somewhat nervous ride.  That I want to avoid. How do the core sound boats feel off the wind? 


 


Again, I think the 20 is a bit more stable, and you are faster not going straight downwind.  In the Everglades Challenge 2013, it was all downwind with 20 +/- till the last 34 miles.  Core Sounds were first and second till then, and ten the older guys had to sleep.  They blew away previous monohull records.  


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you both for your input and observations.  I would be very interested to see the CS 20 MkIII when complete.  It is hard to put the size of a boat in perspective to human size from photos.  At some time as well I would like to sail one.  What will be really interesting  Doug is your thoughts on the feel of the CS 20 versus the CS 20 MKiii with water ballast.  I am in no hurry at the moment.  We just completed a Peeler Skiff and my wife is not quite ready for builder mode again. Building it was satisfying and the results were good.  But it is what it is, a flat bottom boat.  So before I invest another year of weekends I want to be sure I am making a sound decision.  

 

Once again, thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard, I have been sailing a CS20 with a full battens (large powerful rig) for more than 10 years.  Here are my thoughts:

 

1) In 15 to 20 knots of wind, how stable and or comfortable does the boat feel?  Does it require on the second attention?  Granted all boats must be sailed. 

The CS is comfortable and very fast in 15 knots.  As the wind approaches 20 sailing becomes a bit more work managing the heeling, especially in the gusts.  I keep the main sheet close at hand, and trim to control the heel, .  I find the boat does not point fast when heeled over on her rail.  Take a reef and the boat flattens out and speeds away.  Unballasted boats in general require close attention in gusts when the wind is 18 plus knots.  The CS is no different.  

 

2) It was mentioned above that going to windward was wet, more important, how balanced and settled does the boat feel in 15 to 20 knots of wind. 

My boat balances well in a breeze.  The cat ketch rig has a great advantage here versus a sloop,  Taking a reef to keep the boat more flat makes a big difference in stability.  I was out in 20 knots recently in 4 foot seas.  Unreefed the boat was on the rail and threatened to capsize is some of the gusts and swell combinations.  Easing the main sheet kept all under control, but the sail ended up fluttering a great deal. Spray was routinely over the boat as she drove fast into the waves.   Once reefed the boat was very well behaved, and very stable.  Being more flat there was much less spray, and the lower heel provided security as the winds and seas built further.  

 

3) Driving into waves, 3-4 feet, does the boat flex or oil can in any way?  I could feel my first Wayfarer flex as if being curled up when it drove into waves. It was a fiberglass Mk III.  Also it would  oil can. Both were irritating and slow.

I don't find this to be a problem.  My CS has a coat of 9 oz cloth on the outside, and strong tabbing on the interior to make a strong monoque construction.  Pat attention to details when you build and you will have a strong stiff boat.

 

4) Sailing to windward is a matter of trim and balance. Downwind is always more interesting.   A dinghy can feel light and unbalanced down wind.  It can be unsettling and if the boat begins to death roll  it can be a problem. There are ways to prevent this but it is still a somewhat nervous ride.  That I want to avoid. How do the core sound boats feel off the wind? 

 

Down wind is a complete hoot!  CS routinely do horizon jobs on other boats when broad or deep reaching, often with jaw dropping incredible speeds  You will quickly learn to deep reach with both sailing drawing on the same side of the boat.  Pull up your centerboard, flash up the sprit sail, and take off at full plane.  Then get your initiation in the double digit boat speed club.The boat is stable and confident in all down wind angles.  

 

Another trick is running wing and wind.  The unstayed rig allows both sails to go forward of abeam.  Very fast, very stable.  

 

My wife and I intend to cruise and most likely alone. It is important for us to feel we have a boat that we can handle in the common conditions without feeling we are on edge constantly.   I hope these questions make sense.    I would very much like to sail on a CS boat. Unfortunately will miss the event at B&B in October for a Charity Regatta.   I look forward to your responses.

 

I think you will find the MK III with water ballast to be very solid in 15-20 knots.  I have not sailed one in these conditions, but I know that just stepping on board I can feel a difference compared to my unballasted CS20.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great adivce Brent. The key in the unballasted Core Sound is not to cleat the mainsheet as the wind pipes up. If you get knocked over in a gust, release or ease the sheet and she comes right up into the wind.

I haven't sailed her ballasted yet - summer is a busy time with camp and family - so I can't comment on that. Graham says that the Mark IIs are solid. Brent is right about Reefing around 15 to keep her flat so she comes onto plane. Unlike a keelboat that might have less wetted area heeled, these boats do well flatter in heavy air. (In light air, they can benefit from heeling to reduce wetted area.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

BLSKSMR

Completed my CS17 in Feb 2014.  I live on Bass Straight and as the god of sailing always decrees: after 3 years of building outside trying to dodge high winds and storms, since launching have not managed to sail in anything more than 5 knots.  

 

I originally learned to sail in a Wayfarer at Holt Fleet on the Rver Severn in England many many years ago.  I have named my boat Wayfarer in fond memory of dodging the fishermen's lines.

 

The 17 is a beautiful boat no doubt about it and I have had many admiring comments, which makes up somewhat for the 3 years hard labour.  She does have some issues for serious sailors, she is clearly designed for the family man, probably first time dreamer/sailor to be used on flat sheltered waterways i am told are common in eastern USA.  I will make some comments below to assist you but please do not think they are intended to be negative or to dissuade you from the 17, but hopefully help build a better boat;

 

1. Hull - beautiful, beamy, roomy seemingly stable, easy to step in and out from wharf side and nice high  sides to keep the water out .

 

2. Forrard deck and cross seating awkward and dangerous if needing to reef at sea in a blow. Can't reach mainmast without kneeling on cross decking, very awkward.  Suggest cutting back cross seating to match deck so you can stand and lean against the cockpit sides when the mast should be easily reachable. I would now cut the deck back to the forward bulkhead, do away with the deck hatch, which you can't use anyway at sea and is in the way of control line runs, and install a nice big hatch in the bulkhead so you actually use the forward compartment.  You could even then consider installing an anchor well which is impossible with current design. A CS 20 owner I spoke to at Hobart Wooden Boat Show with a professionally built boat had John Welsford design a Bemuda rig because of the reefing risk - he was originally from Sydney where black southerlies come out of nowhere.

 

3. If you are a competent sailor, even if rusty as an old gate hinge as I am, then you will find the sprit rig useless to embarrassing, particularly if you mix with other sailors on occasion.  It will not go to windward in light conditions; in a sloppy sea you will go nowhere near to the wind.  On at least one occasion when trying top race at a local club, Leven Yacht Club, I could not get close to TS 16, although admittedly he is a recognised good sailor locally, and even failed to make the windward mark - we motored home, and ran out of fuel into the bargain. Currently have replaced stick sprits with two old Windsurfer wishbones, which had to be extended, and at least the sails now don't look like old sugary sacks,  at first try she doesn't seem to go too much better to windward in the cursed light conditions.  Before wishbones we could not better 120 degrees, now we  seem to be able to do 110 degrees through the eye. There are problems with the cut of the mizzen I think, it seems very full at the luff, I think there is too much luff round.  Am going toHobart next week to test it out with the sailmaker.

Overall I think the sail are is far too small for real sailing,  The TS is twice as heavy and has about 35% more sail area (17 to 13 sq m). My experience in light conditions is that hull weight can be an advantage to carry through the lulls, light weight is not everything in sailing. A more comparable boat is Iain Oughtred's Fulmar; 16ft and 165kg with 15 sq m of sail, in  Bermuda rig. Iain was a renowned small boat sailor in his youth in Sydney, he doesn't design slow boats. he was sailing a 29er until recent years. The Fulmar was actually designed to be a better Wayfarer.

 

4  I live in an open sea area accessible only via tidal rivers with often strong currents.  A 2hp motor would not cope.  I fitted a 3.5hp short shaft Merc as the biggest i could get without a licence.  The hull  and rig is not really designed for it. The mizzen sprit and sheet fouls  the motor and the motor needs fitting at the highest possible level if using a lifting mount. Unfortunately at that size it does not have reverse or a fuel pump - hence the risk of running out of fuel  the tank is only 1 litre which is only just enough to get out of the river to the start and then back again, assuming we can actually finish the race.  I have since found out that Yamaha do a 3.9hp with all the works and will supply a factory certificate to state that it is only rated to 3.9 hp.  Here, that would be enough to get me past the need to licence it, me and the boat with accompanying fees of course, annually.

 

5. I have emphasised the racing concept here.  I originally intended to use the boat for cruising and avoid racing but I do not have ready access to good cruising water and I'm afraid my old racing instincts have returned. Have you ever seen

two sailboats on the water who do not try to best each other? Against the laws of (male) human nature i would think. At least by going out with the local dingy club there are companionable people and rescue boats about, and if I get back before that have all gone home a cleansing ale is available.

 

6.  I am persevering with the rig for at least this coming season, costs dictate it I'm afraid.  I have designed a Bermuda rig of 15sq m and also an extended two masted rig.  Will see what happens,if the wishbone rig can be made to work I may stay with it, again because of costs.  Two masts are expensive to rig out properly and very slow to set up and dismantle. If you want access to the 4 or 5 control lines for the main on both sides of the boat be prepared for a cat's  cradle.  At the moment i have:

 

A snotter as designed

 

A downhaul snotter to trim sails correctly - ie; leach tension.

 

Main halyard.

 

Topping lift -without it you will make a mess of the boat internals with the sprit, also helps to ease the leach in light airs.

 

Sail downhaul

 

Plus, but no longer rigged - reefing downhaul. Will see what happens when we get some wind.

 

Try taking this lot back to the cockpit, around the un-used fore hatch, both sides ( I only go one side and it takes for ever to rig.)

 

Repeat all this for the mizzen, but at least they hang off the mast.

 

Love the boat, hate the rig.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm one of the "old guys" Doug Cameron mentioned above.  I built CS17 #351 which we have sailed in 2 Everglades Challenges.  I also own a Presto 30 Cat Ketch Sharpie design by Rodger Martin who is also a parter in the boat.  The reason many sharpies have split rigs is to reduce heeling moment because the boats are light and don't have a deep keel, reducing righting moment.  Although there is some compromise going to windward with the cat ketch, the performance reaching and running certainly makes up for it.  I am sure a standard sloop rig would improve windward performance but I would not consider it as safe for sailing offshore.  The Presto 30 has crossed the Gulf Stream 4 times for winter cruising in the Bahamas and is a very stable boat with limit of positive stability of 140 degrees which is better than many keel boats.  Also keep in mind, if at all possible, gentlemen do not sail to windward.

 

We added additional height to the Core Sound rigs and made fat head sails to end up with 16 sq m of sail area to improve light air performance.  We got windsurfer booms from Chinook that fit perfectly and allow for an undistorted sail shape either tack.  For the EC, we added a removeable bow sprit to set an assymetrical spinnaker and a modified Thistle jib for light air.  With reefs in the sails we can handle pretty heavy conditions safely.  Control lines are led aft, reefing is easy, we found dropping the foresail completely and then going forward to tie in the reef was better.  We did eliminate the forward hatch and cut an oval hole in the bulkhead with a shelf forward at seat height for additional storage and leg room to sleep under the dodger.

 

The first EC was fairly breezy and our second night out we shortened sail in a 25-30 knot squall after hitting 14 kt boat speed downwind in short steep waves.  We sailed for some period with just a reefed mizzen then later with a double reefed main and reefed mizzen still going 6-8 knot.  With shortened sail the boat was safe and manageable.  Because of exhaustion, first crossing of Florida Bay, and being mildly hypothermic we stopped to eat and rest in Flamingo after midnight.  We still managed to beat the old monohull record finishing second across the line after the well sailed CS20 of Paul and Alan Stewart.

 

The second EC was in lighter conditions in general and with the small jib in 5-10 knot of air the boat moved along nicely.  It did have slight lee helm with the jib but the upwind performance was better.  For just sailing or cruising (not racing) we don't use the jib or spinnaker.  We were third monohull behind a "turbo" Flying Scot and a modified Lightning.  All in all, I think the CS series of boats are great for what they are; light, safe, seaworthy vessels for cruising or racing.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's been my experience that Core Sounds sail very well when rigged as-drawn. My boat had a downhaul, a snotter and a sheet per mast. If the sails weren't sleeved I would have also had halyards. I never saw the need for a topping lift or any other lines until I rigged the mizzen staysail which is an absolute blast when the winds are light. Then I had a halyard, a line to the tack (not sure what it would be called the way I rigged it) and another sheet.

Sail shape is controlled nicely by adjusting snotter tension and using the downhaul to take out the wrinkles.

I've been out in all kinds of weather on a CS17 and I had fun in most of it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got the CS17 shown on the B&B site without battens or roach on the sail.  We have a lot of light air during summer up here on Puget Sound and I would go high roach and battens if I was buying new sails.  I'm not the racing type but have been six years behind the mast now with no motor and I've always made it home.  I haven't seen it mentioned above but don't overlook the fact that the CS17 is a very comfortable boat for a family day sail.  Seats have good back support, no one has to dodge the boom, and it is easy for kids to sail.         

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for sailing ability to weather, would be interested to hear of some actual observed values. For instance, I currently sail a Montgomery 17, which among other things, has an impressive racing record. Having said that, it takes special knowledge to get the best performance out of one. The original builder likes to tell of a story in which he was invited to attend a two day race, only to find that most of his boats were not doing well at all. He picked out one that appeared to have a decent set of sails, then spent the next hour or so tuning the rig. In this case, tuning meant getting the rake angle of the mast right, plus the right amount of tension on forestay/backstay, plus shrouds (it is a masthead sloop rig). Then it was on to getting the sheeting angles of the jib right, working the traveler and all the other sail controls to get the right amount of tension and twist in the sails, plus moving the weight around to give the boat the right amount balance. Some things mattered a little.......others a lot. As the story goes, all his tweaks really helped the boat point and they won nearly everything in sight. But again, it took special knowledge and experience to coax it out of her.

 

While I have attempted to duplicate everything he mentioned, I have yet to experience that type of nirvana on a consistent basis. Most times, I am doing well to tack through 100 degrees actual.........that being a combination of pointing ability combined with leeway. Then there are days when she seems to sail herself......flat, fast and to weather like she is being towed. Obviously the potential is there, the trick is being able to harness it all the time.

 

I have not been on a Core Sound, but did spend some time on a Princess 22, which is also a cat ketch. As near as I can tell, we did every bit as well as the sloop I normally sail, and it seemed to me we were able to work our way to weather pretty well, probably tacking through 100 degrees actual. My guess is the more time one spends on the boat, and experimenting with the rig, the better it will work for them.

 

But I am curious to hear some objective numbers tacking to weather vs. the subjective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only objective figures I have was from a day when I plotted a polar diagram for my CS17. There was a steady 6 knots of breeze on a lake with negligible  tidal effect.

The figures I obtained on GPS were;

At 50 degrees to the true breeze boat speed was 4.9 knots...this was when it felt like I was going to windward well and any higher into the breeze would have resulted in significant loss of boat speed and indicates a tacking angle of 100 degrees.

The next readings were 5.1 knots @ 60 degrees, 5.6 knots@ 70 degrees, 5.8 knots @80 degrees and 6.1 knots @ 90 degrees.

Off the breeze the speed fell to a low of just under 4 knots and a best VMG downwind at 140-150 degrees, without staysail.

I do have battened, roachy sails with a total area of 139 sq ft.

 

Obviously more data points from multiple attempts would be needed to claim any great accuracy, but 4.9 knots at a 100 degree tacking angle in 6 knots of breeze isn't too bad. 

While on other boats I usually motor up the channel in my usual boat harbour when it's to windward, but I usually tack up to ramp in the Core Sound (partly because of the ease of tacking in a cat ketch but also as it seems to sail quite nicely to windward)

 

Cheers

Peter HK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Supporting Members

Supporting Members can create Clubs, photo Galleries, don't see ads and make messing-about.com possible! Become a Supporting Member - only $12 for the next year. Pay by PayPal or credit card.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.