sails rolled up

[Ken_Potts]

  I think it was Tom Lathrop who mentioned recently that Loon's sails have been stored for many years rolled up on the masts (please fogive me Tom if it wasn't you and if it wasn't Loon).

  Currently I keep the sails for my CS17 folded up and bagged in the forepeak but it sure would be nice if I could just store them rolled up on the masts.  It kind of worries me every time I carefully fold and bag the sails because I've been taught to just stuff my tent (and other fabric gear) at random into its bag (rather than fold it) to avoid working the same creases over and over thereby weakening the fabric.

  The surface my masts currently ride on in the crutches is a sharp plywood edge - There's no way my sails would survive that without padding.  I'd like to hear from folks who store their sails rolled up on the masts as to how they padded the crutches etc.  Help me out guys - I'm too lazy to keep folding the sails while the wind is blowing

  Keep in mind that my boat travels more miles over the road than the water (that's so sad...)

  So how do you store/protect your sails?

[Hirilonde]

It kind of worries me every time I carefully fold and bag the sails because I've been taught to just stuff my tent (and other fabric gear) at random into its bag (rather than fold it) to avoid working the same creases over and over thereby weakening the fabric.

We must have learned our camping/backpacking skills from the same school of thought.  The problem with doing it for sails is that they stay wrinkled, and thus don't hold quite as true a shape, especially in light air.

If you flake sails (accordion folds), the folds are never really creased hard.  Your tent or sleeping bag get lashed or stuffed into tight spots.  Your sail is usually set some where.  I think there is still some impact on the material by flaking sails, but the amount is almost neglidgable, and sail shape is a big part of our hobby, and must be preserved.

Now rolling may be the best of both worlds!

[Tom Lathrop]

Ken,

Yes it was me that always kept Loon's sails on the masts.  Both masts, with rolled up sails, were placed into a canvas sock and laid in crutches on the mainmast mounting hole, the reefing hole and another on the transom.  The crutches were padded with carpet and the sails survived many thousands of road miles with no problems.  I did tie the masts and sock securely to the crutches and he boat so no rubbing from motion could occur.

I plan to do Lapwing the same way.  In fact, after some reality check as to how I plan to use Lapwing, I have decided to go with the simple sail without  battens to make this easier.  I may also simply tie the sail to the mast as with Loon.  Launching, hauling and handling ease of this simple rig is more important to me than any small performance advantage that might be gained from an extended leach roach with battens.  I might not go this way on a CS17 and certainly not on the CS20 but, on a small boat where even an old guy can easily step the masts on the water,  it is my choice.  By the way, BRS 15's with unbattened sails and straight sprits won races, so if complications aren,t really necessary, who need complications? ;D

Oh yes, Southern Skimmer won the race at St Michaels.

[Ken_Potts]

  Thanks guys.

Dave - I have always loved just stuffing tents etc into sacks instead of folding them neatly because I know it's the right thing to do AND I get the added benefit that my innate laziness is rewarded (how often does that happen?)

Tom - I currently store the masts on crutches in the main and mizzen steps.  I have an additional crutch for the sprit booms that goes in the reefing step.  I'm going to redo that a little and may end up with a crutch on the aft deck.  The strap that secures the stern runs over the aft deck and rubs the paint off the deck edges.  Since I'm already going to put some kind of chafe protector together that the strap can run over I might incorporate a low crutch.

  I'll redo the contact area where the masts meet the crutches so the masts lay on a larger area.  Currently the masts are only sitting on the edge of a piece of 1/2" ply.

[Tom Lathrop]

I made a mistake on my above post.  The middle crutch was in the mizzen step.  My excuse is that it has been a while ago.

[Ken_Potts]

No excuse needed Tom.  I was mostly looking for advice on how much contact area there was between sail and crutch - I'm trying to avoid pinch points.  I've got the information I need to modify my setup.  Thanks again.

[JeffM]

I keep 'em rolled in season, take off and fold them off.  I'd leave them on the masts if I had indoor storage long enough.  My first season I rode the masts in main and mizzen pvc crutches, then I worried that I was the sail at the mizzen crutch was taking a beating because the weight concentrates there.  Now I use the main crutch for the butt ends, and let the mastheads ride on the aft deck on a boat cushion--much less stressful for all concerned.

[Ken_Potts]

   Thanks Jeff,

  I was thinking something along the same lines.  I'll keep one crutch on bare aluminum and put the other fairly high on the masts where the sails aren't under as much strain while sailing.  In addition I'll pad a large contact area between the sails and the crutch so the wear won't be concentrated on a small spot.  I'll probably still use a crutch in the mizzen step too because it worked for Loon.  The mizzen-step crutch kind of contradicts my reasoning for keeping the contact between sail and crutch high up but I tend to think experience (Loon) trumps my theory.  If it worked for Tom it ought to work for me too - Unless the universe is just totally unfair

   I'll post pics when I get the new setup done.

   My priority right now is getting a new mizzen mast built.  Nope - I didn't break the original.  I just don't have it anymore.  Sorry...  I'm not ready to talk about it yet - the wounds are too fresh...  Sigh...

[Dale Niemann]

Oh come on Ken,

We need this valuable information so we don't have the same problem.  Many times I read some problem someone has had and then after I have the same problem I remember they tried to help me avoid it.

Dale

[Ken_Potts]

  Thank you Ray!  That puts things in perspective.

  I took the boat to show to some friends who were visiting from Montana.  It was an hour drive.  We didn't even go sailing, I just trailered it over to show it off.

I've noticed in the past that the masts stay in the crutches nicely until I drive really fast (70ish mph is fast with my little truck pulling the trailer) so normally whenever I drive over 55 I look over my shoulder frequently to make sure the masts aren't slipping back from the combination of vibration and aerodynamic pressure.  I've never actually had to pull over and adjust things, I just keep an eye on the masts as they creep gradually backwards but they've never moved far.

  I'm not an irresponsible person and though I've hauled various things over many thousand miles of road (I've put 211 thousand miles on my little 1999 pickup) I've never actually lost anything.  I considered it a point of pride that I've always tied things down well (despite what you just read about the masts creeping slowly backward).

  There was sort of a confluence of problems that conspired against me.

  When I put the masts on the crutch I bias them toward the front so there is 10ish feet of overhang in front of the front crutch.  Unfortunately I didn't think of the difference in friction between the anodized aluminum against the plywood crutch and the 6 feet of epoxy coated fir at the top of the mast.  It turns out that epoxy is quite a bit more slippery than the anodized surface of aluminum - Amine blush?  What right-thinking boat builder would have predicted a slippery finish on epoxy (sarcasm intended)?  I had a pretty good feel of how fast the masts would slip on the anodized surface and I was in good shape when I got lost.  The highway has actually been moved several miles since the last time I drove it and there are confusing interchanges now so  was distracted by finding myself going in the wrong direction TWICE in the middle of nowhere.  So I didn't do my normal shoulder check until I found myself back in a familiar place.  Then I took a look and I had only one mast.  I had gotten so turned around that I didn't know how to retrace my steps so I just continued on home.  I feel horrible - I hope the mizzen mast bounced clean off the road without causing anyone any hardship but I REALLY didn't know where I had been so I couldn't retrace my tracks to find out if I had created a problem for anybody.

  When I got home I got online and ordered replacement aluminum from Online Metals and replacement hardware from Annapolis Performance Sailing.  At lunchtime the following day I went to the lumberyard and found a nice piece of doug fir for the top section of the mast.  Total $250.  Ick.

  I'm not trailering another foot until I have the crutches rebuilt correctly.

  I'm so lame...

[Ken_Potts]

It would have been so much cooler if I'd been able to say I was dismasted in a noreaster

[Ken_Potts]

  Okay Ray - Here's the real truth.  I didn't think anybody would believe the real story so I made up something I thought would be more plausible.

  I was out sailing off Cape Hatteras.  The wind was about force 8 so I was thinking about reefing when what swims up but a loggerhead turtle with (of all things) a cooler on its back.  The turtle was swimming alongside the boat looking at me expectantly so I opened the cooler.  Inside was a nicely iced bunch of bottles of Cameron's Longlegs Fuggles Hop Ale and a note with my name on it.

  I hauled the cooler aboard, opened a beer (first things first after all) and read the note.  It seems I was invited to speak at the annual meeting of the Society For The Preservation Of Absurdly Overblown Lies And Unfounded Claims To Supernatural Powers.

The cooler of beer was in way of apologizing for not giving me much notice.  The Meeting was just about to begin.  If I could make it there in time my payment was to be a million dollars - No - A million dollars and a free blimp.

  I was really happy that in addition to a bottle opener I had remembered to bring my WTF (Wristwatch, Teleporter, and Finder), A handy little multi-tool manufactured, I think, in Switzerland.

  I dropped the anchor overboard but the water was too deep.  I didn't want to leave my boat unattended considering the wind was blowing onshore.  I hauled the anchor back in and removed it from the rode.  I unstepped the mizzen and jury-rigged it into a sort of sea anchor.

  I teleported myself to Titan (these meetings are usually held on one of the sattellites of a large planet) and gave a talk that was quite well received and actually resulted in a few marriage proposals but I'm not as enamored of green-skinned aliens as Capt Kirk was (the cultural differences, you know).

  Upon returning to my boat I found that I was being towed around the Indian Ocean by a Sperm Whale that had mistaken my mizzen/sea anchor for a giant squid.  Seeing that the only way I could reasonably get my mast back was to teleport into the whale, grab the mast and teleport back I decided that I'd rather just dedicate some of the proceeds from my now legendary speech to a new mast.  The whale was so happy when I cut him loose that he belched up the sail.  I sailed downwind all the way home in time to get some sleep before returning to work.

So that's the real story of my Missin' Mast...

I'll get a picture of my current crutches before I carve them up to make the new ones.

[Tom Lathrop]

Now, doesn't it feel better to own up to the truth? 

[DISTELTK]

Now that makes more sense.  I will have my wife read your explaination of the loss of valuable equipment.  I have used some good reasons for foolish and stupid (oops silly) mistakes and losses.  Now she can believe me when she understands others have similar problems.

Tom D  BRS15,  Birder II 

[Ken_Potts]

  Tom L,

  Yes, I do feel much better now.  It's always good to commiserate with like-minded folks.  I'm sorry I didn't tell the truth from the start.

  Tom D,

  Don't forget when you're talking to your wife about these sorts of emergencies that they can usually be avoided completely just by buying a new 8 inch jointer or even an antique bandsaw.  I don't know HOW tool purchases prevent on-the-water emergencies but I know that they do.  Honest.  And if you buy a new sander just before sailing only to be dismasted that only shows that you should have bought a rabbet plane instead.  Don't return the sander - Just get that plane as quickly as possible.

  Did I mention I'm not married?  ;D

[Tim]

Hi Ken,

It is not a good idea to keep the sails rolled on the mast because if you lose a mast on the highway you will lose the sail also.  .

One time I took my boat to show someone, it was the inspector for the title, I took the mast off the boat but I forgot that the mast helps to hold the hatch in place at highway speed.  In the rear view mirror I saw it going flying into tall grass on the side of the road but never could find it.

I do keep mine rolled up on the mast never wory about padding and never have seen marks from the PVC crutch.

Tim

[Ken_Potts]

   Thanks Tim,

   I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone losing a mast on the highway though 

   The new crutch arrangement will be really sticky.  I'm thinking of shrink-wrapping the boat for transport. 

  I'm sorry to hear about the hatch loss.  I can completely see doing that myself.  As a matter of fact anytime I undo the strap that ties the stern to the trailer I put it right on the driver's seat so I WILL NOT forget to tie the boat down.  The driver's seat - Not the passenger seat.

   I think I've had nightmares (maybe just daymares) where I looked in the rear view mirror to see a hatch fly open - Then away...

   Actually I was on a plane way out over the Atlantic once (this story really is true) and I was just looking lazily out the window when some movement caught my eye.  It was some kind of maintenence hatch on one of the engines and it had just come unlatched.  It was flapping in the breeze.  I called one of the flight attendants over and pointed it out.  I asked if it was a problem and just then the hatch tore off.  With a straight face the flight attendant said something to the effect of "not any more" and asked if there was anything else I needed.

[Peter HK]

Ken said

I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone losing a mast on the highway though 

I know of two incidents where the whole boat came off the trailer. One was a small plywood dinghy that I had sold to a friend when he had kids of an appropriate age to learn to sail. While travelling at 100kph on the highway it came loose and ended up as matchwood. I'm not sure how he had tied it on.

The second was my brother in law's brother in law's boat- a 16 ft ballasted open boat called a scruffie 16. It was only secured with the trailer winch which failed....fell off the back causing major hull damage and shattering the spars. It's repaired and sailing again.

Makes the loss of a mast a bit of a non-event ;D

Peter HK

[JeffM]

I keep the masts in place with two bungees: one around the mast butts and secured to the mainmast stepper, the other at the mastheads and hooked to the gudgeons.  (I know I shouldn't depend on bungees at 65mph, but I'm lazy.)  Although I've never lost a mast ('cept of course by breaking it), I can't seem to keep aholt of boat cushions--lost two cushioning the mastheads on the aft deck, and others not well enough secured in the cockpit.  Lost my favorite pfds the same way.

[Ken_Potts]

  Jeff,

  That was exactly my attitude and now I'm building a new mast.  My bungees were good enough to slow the creep of the masts enough that I had time to stop and adjust if necessary.  I didn't realize that once the epoxied part of the mast hit the crutch the slippage would accelerate (a LOT).  I figured I still had a good 5 or 6 foot safety margin but the mast disappeared anyway.

  I have scoured local news reports hoping that I didn't cause any damage or injury through the loss of the mast and I haven't found anything - But I will never know for sure.

  Just be careful - A bungee system can easily be backed up by an eyelet on the mast that you can clip a snap shacke to or something like that.  You can even leave the safety line slack - It will tension itself if it is needed.

  I'm not trying to be alarmist or anything - It's just a really bad feeling not knowing if I created a hazard for an innocent passer-by.

  Besides - It would really be bad if you took the boys out to the ramp for one of the great trips you report on only to find that you had half the rig missing   The boys would miss the trip and I would miss the report.

  I swear I'm going to find a way to epoxy the masts to the crutches in some clever way that won't interfere with sailing.  Maybe I'll just drive with the sails rolled up on the masts but still in the steps.  No... that might cause other equally bad problems...