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Graham and everyone...

I have been sort of never quite happy with the reefing of the luff pocket sail design.

First I tried the rolled only half way, sail set like a bag.

Second, I had reefing points put in half way down and then the luff pocket was so tight I had to get it recut as it would not come down far enough. The problem with this rig is that to get up on the fore deck when it is windy to fiddle about with the ropes etc is that you tend to pull on the boom which wrecks your heaved too position ie the boat starts to head off the wind and disaster looms... also it is very slow to do...You really have to go ashore in my opinion if it is rough.

Moving the mast is fine but it won't go well to weather if you are heavily loaded and it is scary trying this if it is rough.

So, here is my question...

Do I go and spend about as much again on getting a track put on and having the sails recut and battens put on.. or perhaps redo the rig, in particular the main and put on a sail like on Nigel Irens Romilly design... ie still has high or higher aspect ration, much simpler reefing, looks good..

You could use the bottom two bits of the mast, and then have a carbon fibre gaff or what ever you call it.. This would make it easier to man handle too.

What do you guys reckon? I was thinking if you got the size of the sail right you would not have to worry about moving the mast either obviously, ...

Here are a couple of shots.

post-88-129497660251_thumb.jpg

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Good to hear from you in recent days, Rob!  What sort of sail is that, anyway?  Look like standing lugs, but the halyard is too far forward on the yard.  Anyway, before you give up on the sleeves, try a trick I happened on by accident: roll the sail tightly around the mast the usual way, but ignore the loop made for attaching the snotter and make a new snotter attachment by tying a short line around the mast and through the grommet.  This takes the snotter load off the sail and allows it a better shape.  By the way, Graham mentioned a little while ago that he was planning to offer balanced lug sails as an optional rig.  I have a little boat with such a sail and it jiffy-reefs quite nicely.

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What your saying is true but the issue I have is if it is eg 15knots gusting and you can see more coming.... how do you actually get up and do all that mucking around without starting the motor and driving off head to wind ? ie if you sheet the mizzen on, tie off the tiller and then pull the mainsail boom towards you to get close enough to undo and redo the outhaul it makes the boat sail and round up..

That is the problem I have with it... at some point some one has to get up on the bow with one arm around the mast and hang on and not sheet the sail in..? I reckon that other lug sail rig would allow you to get at it much easier ie via the halyard.?

Rob

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Rob

I see the Romilly has a balanced lug which requires a boom rather than a sprit at the foot. While this is semi self vanging I prefer a sprit overall. You could easily rig it as a standing lug which is quite a nice rig- I have one on my Welsford Golden Bay dinghy. The yard is sometimes a problem when dropping or reefing as it falls aft end first and can be a bit of a handful. The sail tends to billow away from the mast and flog when the halyard is released which is also a little irritating. You need a parrel.

As you would have to get the sails recut either way and build a yard (or 2) why not go for the tracks- unlikely to be any cheaper to change the rig to such an extent. I'm certainly going with tracks on my Cs17. It could be set up to reef from the cockpit.

Peter HK

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hmmmmm so you are going to put non battened sails on a track with a sprit boom... How will you reef it from the cockpit?

Rob

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

I said it is possible to make it reefable from the (Aft) cockpit, not that I intend too as it means too many lines run aft.

It requires a topping lift, maybe a lazy jack (which on a sprit hangs under the sail and back up to the mast), permanent tack line to the reef point, possibly an old fashioned reefing line to the head, and permanent reefing lines at the clew led around turning blocks on the sprit and mast and run aft. A few too many lines to run and deal with.

My sails have been ordered and will have a full length batten at the head and leech battens below.

I do intend to make it quickly reefable from the forward cockpit. The halyard will lead to a deck cleat. I will have a line to the reef point at the tack. As I have done on my standing lug/sprit rig I have a reefing line run along the sprit up to a snap shackle attached at the leech reef point. The drill is ease the halyard/pull the tack down then pull and cleat the clew on the sprit. The snotter needs to be eased a little before all this and then retightened.

Hope that was clear.

Peter HK

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Forgot to add from the coresound 20 webpage

Notice the rig: On this boat, all of the controls are lead aft to the helmsman, allowing the boat to be reefed and unreefed without leaving the helm. With increasing wind, we were able to lower

the sails (see top of masts) and reduce the heeling force allowing us to sail safely and powerfully in 20 -25 knots 

This boat has the standard rig.

Peter HK

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Ray said

reefing would not be able to be accomplished from helm position.

Apart from tying the reef lines it's possible to reef from the cockpit- just takes lots of extra lines.

On both my Farrier F31 and Crowther cruising cat I had 2 reefs that were permanently run and could be set from the cockpit.

A second downhaul, a reefing line at the boom/sprit end (the clew stays attached) and the halyard all run aft to cleats would do it. As the original tack and clew stay attached, the bundle of the sail usually stays pretty well controlled.

It adds a lot of complexity to rigging however which is why I don't intend to rig it this way.

Peter HK

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Rob, I've found it makes a difference how hard you sheet in the mizzen when you want to heave-to.  It needs to be in TIGHT.  No movement possible.  I steer the boat into the wind til all headway is gone.  Mainsheet off.  (I don't fuss much with the tiller after that.)  Then the boat rides head to wind like a duck and stays that way.  You don't need to pull in the main, then, since it's in easy reach.  The only problem, of course, is when you're ready to reef the mizzen...

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Hi Rob,

It is good to hear from you. I thought that I would give the members a crack at this before I put my two cents worth in.

I really like the sail track version of our rig. It reefs easily and quickly and the best part is that like all forms of slab/ jiffy reefing you get a perfect sail set when reefed.

As has been said above, with a Ronstan S-hook and a couple of blocks and some 5mm line you can reef the main without leaving the cockpit. I have not bothered to run the extra reefing lines on any of my boats yet, arguing that when it bothers me enough I would run them. I just transfer the S-hook from the downhaul to the reef cringle.

I was out singlehanding a P22 recently and reefed her twice from the cockpit. It sure was convenient, maybe I need to run a couple more lines on Southern Skimmer.

That rig that you show looks very intersesting and while it has a lot of luff length it is generally accepted that the top couple of feet of luff does not do much, hence the square top mains on Cats and AC boats. The reason that I did not square top Southern skimmer's sails is that the top batten needs to be longer than the head of the sail and you can't lower the sail without messing with the batten. Besides convenience, we had to unrig the boat during the race to fit under the bridges.

The reason that I put more area in the mizzen is to keep the main smaller and more manageable. You could argue that the main is more efficient and therefore it would be better to make the main bigger and mizzen smaller. That would be so if we were restricted in sail area but as we are not we can waste some sail area for upwind work to have an all around better handling boat, otherwise we could follow the logic of getting rid of the mizzen altogether and have a big square top cat rig.

Are you doing the Fraser Island trip this year?

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I have decided that I definitely want to have the ability to reef my CS 17 "Lively".  I was thinking about changing to Rob's zipper concept since I already have a sleeve sail.  However, based on Rob's comments and other research I have done and Graham's comments, I now feel I should convert to sail track. 

Graham, could you be more specific in exactly what kind of track you are using and what needs to be attached to the sails?  Is it a "T" track with cars or rope in a groove, or what?  Any pictures or specific model numbers would be great.  By the way do you sell these tracks? 

I went back to look at the photos I took of your CS 17 in the EC race.  It appears that it has a "T" track.  I did not have a photo of what the sail attachments were.

Thanks

Dale

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Graham,

nice to hear from you..

First up Fraser is on the cards for December.. sandfly season but too bad. We are going to the Whitsundays in OCtober in a rent a yacht ie no camping so we will get back to our roots in Dec.

How do you attach the snotter to the mast to get it to reef down from the cockpit...? I am all for some close up photos.

Rob

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How do you attach the snotter to the mast to get it to reef down from the cockpit...?

Rob

You can't reef from the cockpit with a luff sock

With tracks (and slugs, not a luff rope) the snotter simply stays where it is- though needs to be eased when reefing and needs to be run aft to a cleat.

Hope the sandfies aren't too bad in December. I've nearly been eaten alive at Gary's anchorage in September and Yankee Jack Creek in April but have never had a problem at Wathumba Creek.

Peter HK

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So, essentially I put a track on the main, have the luff pocket removed, bolt a fitting on the mast for the snotter, get some sort of slugs/fittings put on the luff of the sail.. and voila.. ? Do I need to put battens on as well or will I still be able to roll up the sail around the mast?

ie can you have a tracked sail without battens?

And as for the sandflies at Wathumba... I reckon you can see them from google earth!!!

We had one day and the next morning up there in Nov or Dec when the wind dropped and to be honest we stayed in the tent for a few hours until we had some breeze. I even have them buzzing around the video lens visible in the home movie.

Garys anchorage can be special too as it is shielded well from the breeze I guess.

The other thing I have been thinking of is water ballast but that is another story.

R

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Rob

I think battens help enormously but are not essential. What I have done is have a full length batten at the top- which makes a big difference on a roached sail- and leech battens further down. To be able to roll the sail you need to have the easy-to-remove velcro batten pockets- which I have on my sails (though they are still to be set).

If you mark the halyard for the reefed position it only drops a metre so there is not too much loose sail to deal with. I'd try without battens first especially on your sails with no roach. A topping lift may be helpful. If you fit a reefing line at the clew which goes the first reef clew position and back down to the sprit (tied with a bowline) it is self adjusting. I use a captive pin shackle on this line to attach to the reef point so I can move it up to the second reef point if necessary.

Re sandfies- they can be unbelievably unpleasant. I've found that high doses of Thiamine can reduce your appeal to them but only if you are taking enough that your sweat stinks :)

Re water ballast- I've also considered this. I think a few fresh water jerry cans tied around the centrecase might be helpful but I am considering a purpose built tank. Remember it works best as a layer close to the bottom and must be full or the sloshing effect is too destabilizing.

Peter HK

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I think I will do it...

I will ring Gordon the friendly sailmaker and have a chat..

I think I will just go with the main and no battens and see how that goes. I reckon it should be fine and I can still roll the sails.

Speaking of ballast, my thoughts initially went all funny and complex with bilge pumps and using the lockers port and starboard for those BIG days, but then thought maybe about 3 canvas Kit bags full of sand which you could move to windward ..

R

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  • 3 weeks later...

Tell me if you think this will work...

I have a zipper in the bottom of the luff pocket from the foot of the sail ie the bottom up to the first hole cut in the luff pocket for the sprit to go across ie the gap that shows the mast. All I need to do is put another zipper in the next bit of the luff pocket up until the top reefed luff pocket hole..

Have a reefing line tied into the top outhaul position and down to sprit boom ie new saddle or something simple on the sprit.

To reef whilst out on the water...

1. undo current zipper at bottom of sail ie up to the normal luff cut out

2. undo new zipper in the next bit of the luff pocket.

3. slacken halyard and let sail run down mast. (thus avoiding having to undo and redo the sprit snotter, you can leave it attached)

4. connect downhaul to new position and redo the new zipper that is now between the foot of the sail and the sprits new position.

5. haul on the reefing rope that is in the leach of the sail so that it ties off nice and tight on the sprit.

6. retension the halyard and adjust the sprit/snotter

7. rollup the excess sail at the bottom and tie off in the traditional way.

Sounds like it should work and it leaves you with a luff pocket with no sail track... so you can still store your sails rolled up on the mast as you drive along and when you are at anchor..

Pick holes in it please gentlemen..

Otherwise I will have to put the track on and get the sails redone.

Went for a shortish outing on Sunday with Alex the 14 yr old daughter, I stopped on a friends trailer sailer and had lunch and a couple of wines whilst daughter and other 2 kids headed off out of sight in boat.. Was nice.

R

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post-88-129497662675_thumb.jpg

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Rob

I see two possible problems. Firstly, you will have to get onto the foredeck to zip/unzip the luff sock- this may be difficult/risky in rough conditions and also provide more windage up forward so that the bow might tend to fall off. Possibly a problem single handed.

Secondly, reconnecting the zipper in a breeze with everything flogging may not be easy.

Sounds like it should work and it leaves you with a luff pocket with no sail track... so you can still store your sails rolled up on the mast as you drive along and when you are at anchor..

There is no reason you can't roll the sail on the mast with tracks- especially with no battens.

Peter HK

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Rob,

I like your idea.

I like to be able to roll the sail up on the mast and I particularly like the clean airfoil achieved with the sleeved luff.

I drilled a large hole through the mast about 6 inches above the deck and had a section of 1/2 inch heavy-walled aluminium tubing welded in it. It gave a strong hole through the mast. Then I used about 18" of the tubing as a handle and had welded a section of bar on the end. Stick the bar end in the mast and it makes a handy handle for rotating the mast. I called my "mast wrench". Graham referred to it as a "mast spanner". It made rolling up the sail much easier.

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