Arnie Eaton Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Barry, You are about where I'm at with my Vacationer, Wind Song. Got to get going again while I work on plans for tape and stich of a "Super Sunray" I made the scarfing jig from "Wooden Boat" and will use it for the Sunray. I was given a few pictures of a Sunray sailing on San Franciso Bay in 1937 by the guy doing the sailing. A very fast boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Barry Here's an idea I've been working on for sacrifical rub strips. So you wouldn't have to mess with bedding compound and screwing directly into the hull. You could also make a wooden "T" as well. The drift boat guys up there in the PNW screw their UHMW directly to the 3/4" hull bottoms, but I don't think that is such a good idea. Not much screw bite! :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Arnie, You been sittin' on yours about as long as I've been sittin' on mine. Time we both got busy and git them done and spend some time sittin' on the water in them both. Phil, The lower rub rails don't seem to get much damage or abuse on these hulls. The dory type hull has most of its impacts on the upper rails. I made my upper rail from a doubled 1X2 with the ply sandwiched between them. The inner 1X2 is rabbited to accept the ply from the hull. It is securely glued and screwed to the inside of the hull. The outer layer is bedded and attached from the inside and can be removed at some point without too much hassle when it comes time to replace it. The lower rail on mine will be bedded and blind screwed from the inside. I always bed the thru hull screws in epoxy plugs. Been doing that for years. Never had a failure with even one of them and when it becomes necessary to remove a screw they are just backed out of the plug and can be rethreaded easily. The strength of that type of connection is incredible as compared to holding into the wood. And no moisture incursion issues. I am also glassing and finishing the entire hull up to the top rail prior to installing the lower rail. It will be totally finished on all surfaces prior to installing it too. I have a number of friends that are river fishing junkies out here, been working on their boats for years with them to make them last longer. UHMW has been a part of protecting them for quite awhile. When properly placed it can be a big help. When not, worthless. Not too attractive an addition on a wooden boat in my mind, but I'm not opposed to its use. Doesn't stain, paint or look traditional. But then I'm in a more classic mode than that too. Built plaxtic boats for too long and am really trying to get away from the use of plastics inplace of wood as much as possbile. But to each his/her own. There are lots of ways to get there. Just get them in the water and enjoy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt jake Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Glad to hear that you FINALLY got the OK from the Dr to start working again! YEAH!!!! I have the shop cleaned out here now, so if you need tome space...? If you don't, I will just have to start another project (you know me). UHMW? I have scads of it if anybody needs some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 I am taking the day off tomorrow to work on my boats. The weekender is going on a 3 day cruise on the Chesapeake bay next week. The dory I am building needs to get out of the garage that its in and I will be adding another coat of primer after sanding the hull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Barry I think I missunderstood you: & I can't get the quote thingy to work right?? Quote: "Then flip it to do the bottom and paint the hull, install a sacrificial strip on the bottom and leading edge of the keel." I was thinking of beaching/ running aground. Sacrifical bottom skegs when you need them! Quote: "I always bed the thru hull screws in epoxy plugs. Been doing that for years. Never had a failure with even one of them and when it becomes necessary to remove a screw they are just backed out of the plug and can be rethreaded easily." I agree with the epoxy plugs, just not with doing thru-hull connections for sacrifical pieces of wood, plastic or whatever material? The detail shown connects thru the side of the runner with no thru hulls! The "T" shape could be any built up wood piece. The runner should last indefinately depending on maintenace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Phil, I'm o ne of the lucky ones that live in the Pacific Northwest with its incredible sailing waters and rocky beaches. Not much sand around here to beach on. Once in awhile we're lucky to find a sandy beach that we can actually get to. Most of them are at the end of long flats that leave you stranded when the tide goes out. Some of the lakes have some nice beaches but most of them are in parks marked for swimming only. :roll: So we have to take into account that we are going to bang up the bottom of the keel and part of the stem as a matter of course. That is where I see the use for UHMW on these boats. A strip along the keel and perhaps another along the bottom edge of the outer chines. I'm also fortunate that one of my sailing buddies has a pile of UHMW that he picked up from the sawmill green chains. Has to be reworked a bit to use it for some things but the price is right. I can see what you are thinking about doing and I don't see whiy it isn't possible for you to do that. The life expectancy of a rubrail on a Weekender, PC or Vacationer is pretty good for most of the builders and not many of them get taken off to replace. Some get reworked a bit and sections grafted into them here and there but it usually isn't all that big a deal to do it. For those with a brite finish, the work is in the refinishing mostly. For those with painted rails, fill and repaint. I'm just saddened by the number of these that end up setting off in the weeds because the builder lost interest or didn't maintain it properly. It all depends upon how it is built, the quality of the materials that go into them and the maintenace that is done regularly rather than ignored. Unfortunate though it is, there are a few that are hardly ever used and just set and deteriorate under a tarp and are ignored. They are the ones that we see with a lot of mold, rotted wood and it only taks a season or two of neglect for many of their owners to just say it isn't worth it to them to bring them back. Sad, but it is a "throw away" society in may ways and It is hard to see it happen. But the good news is that a few of them find their way to a second owner and a new life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Can't help it guys, it has been so long since I've been able to do much of anything meaningful towards finishing this project that all I've been able to do is a lot of small extra projects or complete and finish the add on items to add when the hull/cabin/deck/cockpit is glassed and painted. I have so many parts built and in some cases rebuilt because I was going nuts not being able to work on the actual boat. Now I can again with some limitations to how and what I work with. But I can do it. I have to thank all of you for allowing me to continue to haunt this place and try to contribute some thoughts that may be of interest along the way. Great bunch of people and a great host. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oyster Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Barry, glad that you are able to return to your work. Don't discount yourself with your participations here. IMOO, you have surely given some great words to one and all around this place. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 I'll 2nd that Oyster! Barry I agree with all that you said. How do your river buddies attach the UHMW to their drift boats? While living in Eugene,OR I had the pleasure of fishing the upper McKenzie and the Rogue in a p-wood drift boat, wonderful design. Especially the double enders! Now here's a fishing guide with a boat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Phil, the majority of the drift boats that I've worked with are double ender dory type boats as well. Most are plywood construction. Most only last a season or two before they get some major holes punched into them. So for the most part they have built them cheap, quick and dirty. But there are a few exceptions and some nice ones are on the rivers here. Amazingly the thin aluminum ones get holes torn into them easier than the plywood ones. Don't understand that, but havn't thought much about it either. On a number of them, we've doubled the bottom thickness to 2 layers of 1/2" ply and gone to strictly Meranti or Okume marine ply for the bottoms. Then they are adding a 1/2" X 3" plywood base for a skeg and two bottom runners on either side of it. All of these are bonded flat on the undersurface surface. Their skegs are cut from what amounts to essentially a 2X3 length of UHMW and thru bolted to the bottom with fender washers on the interior and fender wasers and lock nuts recessed into the outer surface of the skeg. These are centered into 1 1/2" diameter epoxy plugs poured around the bolts from a bottom up configuration. The bolts are removed leaving a threaded epoxy plug that is 1 1/2"" in diameter and 1 1/2" thick. The bolts are screwed back into the plugs from the inside thru the fender washers and then thru the hull bottom and skeg and the recessed fender washers and lock nuts are tightened up to pull the skeg tight to the bottom. The skegs are generally set into (ssshush) Polyseam seal that is allowed to cure before tightening the nuts on the skeg. Some of the guys fill the recess for the washers and nuts with Poly seam seal, most don't. A similar smaller/thinner flat sheet of UHMW is cut to fit the outlne of the outer chine line and covers about 4' of the center outer portion of the bottom and in to the parallel strips attached to the hull bottom. These are just over 1/2" thick and they are attached with 3M double faced industrial laminating tape. The attach two smaller triangular plates to the bottom at the bow and two more at the stern the same way. They don't work loose and they are there to stay. (The same tape is used to attach the thin UHMW strips on glass boats.) Two of the builders have also added full hull lengths of 1/2" thick UHMW sheet to the bottom of the sides along the chines. These are about 5-6" wide stock and they take a huge number of impacts without damage to the hull in any way. These same two builders have attached additional wide, thin (1/4") strips to the forward portions of the bottom laying up to the chines to protect them from impacts as well. Since I started working with this group of guys and two ladies, all of them have gotten more than 5-7 years on their plywood drift boats and for the most part, they look great and are holding up well. They ain't pretty, but they sure seem to work well for them. I know that some of the impacts are pretty solid since there are chunks out of the UHMW and in one case the plywood under it on the side was cracked but not holed. All of these boats were originally just painted or clear coated with varnish. All of them have since been glassed on the outside and then refinished. Several of the guys and one lady have also added additional glass tape stripping to the interior joints to make them stronger an smoother. They all drift the Skykomish, Snohomish, Upper Skagit and other rivers in this are. All of these rivers are swift, rocky bottom rivers and tough on hulls. All of them get their UHMW from scrap that comes from the sawmills and industrial mfg. Some of them work for companies that just give them the used materials and they share with the others. So there isn't a big investment in UHMW on their parts. They run it thru surface planers and cut it and form it themselves so their isn't any real cost there either. Haven't seen any of it welded by anyone until you posted about your little creek boat. I plan on talking to a couple welder friends of mine about welding various plastics or composite materials now. We used a lot of various plastics and composite materials in our boats where we could get a strength and weight advantage. But this was a few years back and lots of things have happened since then with technology. I feel so Old and out of touch with the real world sometimes. :roll: But I can put a good finish on a piece of wood when called for. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 That does sound like some major abuse. Good info Barry thanks! Here's a link for buying the welding rod. Have them send you a free catalog they carry alot of interesting stuff. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=73&Page=1 The rod doesn't show online??? but is in the catalog for $5.64 per lb. which would be +/- 80-100 lf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oyster Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Sorry guys, Hijack coming. :wink: My assistant and I have been working boss. Got the new spring fling fresh up on the 20, and CPES the bottom of my round stern, and a new painting shed since the shop is running over right now. I will forgo adding the snot boat progress. You know, folks cuss wooden hulls. But built with quality stuff, and care taken in construction, a three day fresh up is all that it takes before she hits the water again. :twisted: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Looks like your "Assistant" is adding the finishing touches to your CPES job there. Good work matey! 8) Going to be an interesting hull me thinks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Sorry for mentioning the "P" word on your thread Oyster. I'll start calling it (Gymnanthes lucida) so it won't throw up so many red flags. Look it up you'll get a . Nice layout and joinery work on those gunwales!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adla Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 OK - here we go with another update. At long last the topside has been repainted. The bright work is mostly cleaned up and getting ready for varnish. The mast is re-attached and the stay socks are on! The big test was last night when it rained. Morgaine didn't look like she had been splashed with mud - and that is what the satin finish paint looked like after rain. She had about an inch worth of water that I bailed...when I get the rigging back on I am going to make a boom crutch and cover. But - the steering is fixed (last time - when/if it breaks I am making a tiller) and she will be ready to sail again when I get all the pulleys and lines back on. The dacron is on the way for the reef points. That is the next big project. All that is left on Morgaine is getting the new porthole plexi in after the rings are varnished. I can worry about splash coamings later. a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Even prettier when she's dressed for the dance. 8) Looking mighty fine Adla. New gloss paint makes a huge difference. I think you will be happier than with the satin. Knew you would make good progress. Wish I could do the same. The hurrier I go, the behinder I get it seems. :roll: But launch by July 4th is the plan for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adla Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Thanks Barry - Well, I am done for the day...I started painting her name back on (had to paint over it because the new paint was not only glossy it was a bit whiter)....and I have a renewed appreciatio for what my sister went through to get that font right for me. Barry - I actually felt like I was going backwards too this week - I had all the hardware off and the mast and mast stub off - the spreader off the mast etc...i really made a mess of things...but it comes together. The difference between satin and high gloss is phenomenal...I wiped the seats with a sponge this afternoon and they came clean (real clean) and when it was satin paint...the more I wiped the boat down, the worse it looked. Also - the brightwork looks so good with just oil on it...but it will get a high gloss varnish too. A July 4th launch sounds like a lot of FUN! I can't wait to see your progress! a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oyster Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Adla, 'bout time your practice paid off on that new one, isn't it? Whats the statis on the new adopted one with no clothes on, the last time we saw that one? You know, step children love to dance, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adla Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 You mean this wallflower: I am just about done with that boat in my head Actually, with Morgaine - I made a lot of mistakes in a hurry...or rather not mistakes but did things in a silly order. Viviane is poised to get work done as soon as Morgaine is ready for the water again. I just don't want to work on either of the other two unless I have one ready for water if I so decide to take up the countless offers for "crew" that I have had in the last few weeks. I do plan to do a lot of nice things on the interior of Viviane - put some of the boat joinery books I have to work for me! I have ideas and there are fine examples out there. Hopefully - by next year this time, I will have not only graduated from college (so I can stop going) but also have Viviane ready to launch. a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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