JeffM Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 I just drilled the reefing mast step for my CS20, and in thinking about finishing the masts I discovered a problem. I will have sleeve luff sails with two sets of reefing points with reefing by rotating the masts. The masts will be kept stationary so the sails won't unroll by means of a pin running from the mast into the deck/thwart. But I also want to be able to move the mizzen mast to the reefing step if I choose. Trouble is, if I put the pin fitting on the mizzen mast close to the thwart, I won't be able to get the mizzen down the hole for the reefing step (which is much deeper). Can I leave the mast clean by putting the pin fitting on the thwart, and then run the pin into a simple hole in the mizzen mast? I'm worried about weakening the mizzen mast at its most critical point: just above the thwart. Maybe I could epoxy a wooden plug at that point inside the mast to prevent the mast from buckling at that point, and run the pin into that. Ideas? Graham?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Nelson CS#35 Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Not answering your specific question...if you stick the mizzen in the third hole, do you need to reef? You have already reduced your sail area almost 2/3s. If that dont do it...I dont want to be sailing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Jeff, Put a wooden plug in the bottom of both main and mizzen masts. The plug will be round of course where it runs up into the masts for a tight fit, but taper to a rectangle shape 3 inches below the bottom of the aluminum. This rectange then fits into a similar shaped hole at the bottom of each mast tube. When rectangular plug is in the rectangular hole the mast will not rotate no matter which mast tube it resides in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffM Posted June 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Joe, I expect to roller-reef around the masts most of the time, but wanted the other option. Thanks for the thought, Brent. Got an idea that might also help anyone else who wants to have cake and eat it too: pin through the mizzen step into an epoxy bushing into the plug in the bottom of the mast. Mast can be rotated easily, there's no interference with the reefing step, and no weakening of the tubing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy Hill Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Jeff. I drilled a 3/4 inch hole right through each mast a few inches above the deck and had a section of 3/4 inch heavy walled aluminium pipe welded in place and ground it down until it was pretty. I then took a piece of aluminium rod that just fit into the tubing. I slid the rod into a foot or so of the tubing and welded it, leaving about 4 inches of the rod showing. This made my "Mast Wrench." (Graham calls it a Maast Spanner) With someone holding out the clew I could use the wrench to turn the mast and roll the sail up very neatly. Even alone, the Mast Wrench made furling the sails neat and easy. It's not too easy to explain, but the Mast Wrench looked like a foot or so of 3/4 inch aluminium pipe with a section of rod sticking out the end. A floating Mast Wrench could be made of oak or ash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Blackburn Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 I reckon there are two questions here. 1. ease of use. 2. safety in bigger waters. The roll furling is terrific and easy and makes for easy "boat ownership". Leave sails on the masts, drop 'em in and you're gone in 3-4 mins. Reefing if caught by weather by rolling up and locking off the mast rotation will work in my experience but the sails set like a bag of the proverbial. Downside of this configuration is lack of battens and loss of last % of performance. Moving the masts works well on the bank but is not an option if things are hairy. The other option is to just derig the main and sail off or downwind only on the mizzen alone if things are getting blowy too. So... I have just sent my sails up to the sailmaker to have them changed by putting a zipper from foot to sprit boom hole in luff. New downhaul point put there and then another 2nd sprit point further up .. also new outhaul point on leach of sail too. Some reefing points to tie up the bundle of sail. Idea is to undo zipper, take off boom, lower sail, reposition boom reclip on the downhaul bundle up sail and tie off. Shall see how it goes but my experience last time we went up to Hervey Bay was this... Headed off in 10 knots, within 30mins had very heavy gusts (8-10knots gps and getting nervous) and we had no option really to but to go ashore and move the mizzen and head off again. took about 25mins. Then got about 1 hour out into the bay and the wind dropped again. We really could not re rig as we had a very sloppy sea condition and we were out in the middle of the bay. So I am now going to have a halyard inside the luff pocket and the ability to raise and lower to the new reef point and then also still have the old options too. It should balance better. The rest of that trip was a good time to ponder this as we had to then go to weather with a fair bit of weight in lighter winds and choppy conditions but the boat would not drive as well to weather without the balancing effect of the two sails up. ie only one sail. Hopefully it will work. I still like the concept of a simple rig but I don't like the lonely feeling out in the chop trying to move it around the boat. Rob ps pick holes in this please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Rob, I have the slab reefing on my CS20, similar to what you propose, only using sail track. Reefing is easy. And the boat sails very nicely when reefed. With the reefing plan I have I can confidently take the boat out solo in howler conditions, reducing sail area when needed, and reverse the process when conditions slack up. I suspect the raising and lowering the luff pocket sail when the wind is up may require some tugging on the downhaul to get the sail lowered. Same thing on the halyard when shaking out the reef. The zipper from foot to snotter hole seems ok as long as your sail maker can put a fearsome strong zipper in. Wouldn't want this tearing out at the wrong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Blackburn Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 I have thought long and hard about this... not that that means much but. The lowering should not be a problem as it is just like a laser sail and is no different to when you put the mast into the sail ie it has a big luff pocket. If it is flogging like hell it should rattle itself down. I am putting a sheave at the top too. The zipper I am assured IS strong. It is the sort they use on the luff of headsails on catamarans. So it should be right. ???? Famous last words. No doubt there will be something I have missed here but shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 I am sure that the zipper will be strong enough as long there is a webbing strap to carry the foot tension across the bottom of the zipper with a snap fastener to hold it in place. Your plan sounds good and I look forward to hearing how well it works. I have agonized over the sleeve luff verses sail track also and decided to rerig my CS17 for the Everglades Challenge with the sail track. Gordy came out with me for our first sail with the new rig and could not believe how much more complicated it was over his sleeve luff. We apreciated it's reefability during the heavy weather section of the challenge being able to quickly reef both sails to suit the conditions and stay in complete control and have good setting sails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian watkins Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 The two sail attachment systems discussed here have been sleeve and sail track. What about lacing? Can it used with conventional reef points, or is it a "worst of both worlds" solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 The only difficulty that I can see with a lace on sail, when jiffy reefing is getting the lacing by the snotter. If the snotter was unclipped then reclipped after lowering the sail then it should be no harder than when using a sleeve sail. You should not use a spiral lacing when used with a halyard or the lacing will jam, the proper lacing method is to always pass the lacing from grommet to grommet around the front side of the mast without ever passing the lacing behind the mast. To save further work when reefing you should lace below the reef separately, that way you can leave the upper lacing alone, in fact I would tie each grommet below the reef point as separate ties. Another point is to attach the sheet to the sprit so that when you put the sprit into the reef clew, the sheet is already connected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian watkins Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Thanks for the info, I think we all appreciate having a designer so involved with the community of people building his boats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnrazz Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 I have seen examples of vertical jiffy reefing or brailes on laced sharpie rigs in photos of the old working New Haven sharpies. They fold a section of the sail up to the mast and ease the sprit forward to reef. Has anyone tried these? Razz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Yes, the old timers reefed their cat ketches by brailing the forward section of their sails up to the mast. The rather fat sausage that the bunt makes all of the way up the leading edge of the sail is unacceptable to me if you want any degree of efficiency. Tom and I have watched our local North Carolina spritsail boats brail their topsails the same way and it is usually made worse by part of the sail pulling out from the brail and turning into a big wind scoop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Rob, You guys have many more skins under the belt than I so I was wondering why you you always move the mizzen up to the middle when doing the mast swap reefing? It seems like it might be better to move the main sail to the middle first. This gives you more sail to power through chop when close hauled. It would also be easier to move it when you have made the boat hove-to by bringing the mizzen in and tying it down. (This ability to heave-to so easily is of course one reason you would want to leave the masts in and do the traditional reefing instead) Once the boat is hove-to you can move the main and pull out the mizzen laying it on top the deck which I have done or if you don't want to step over it on each tack you can move it to the main sail hole. The boat is very balanced sailing under the main alone and you can spill out some of the gusts if you keep the sheet at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Blackburn Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 The reason we move the mizzen is that the main mast won't fit. I have a couple of heavy plastic horn cleats on the mast to tie the downhaul to and the one on the main is further down the mast than the one on the mizzen. Thus the main wont touch the floor when you put it through the deck. ie the cleat is closer to the foot of the mast.. Bit of a bugger really. I never thought of that when we did the masts. The whole moving masts out on the water is hard one. I reckon you would need 3 good strong blokes to confidently take either mast out and manhandle it when it is scary. The main mast would be the worst to move out on the water as there is only room for one bloke up on the foredeck. Arnie might do it but I would see myself slipping and that is the end of that... I am off to get my sails back this week with the newfangled zipper arrangement and if all goes well I reckon it will give me roller furling for ease of handling and luffability ie no battens and it will give me a big increase in safety. Sorry I took so long to respond but have been in NZ. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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