Help I'm stuck in the moaning chair. BIG problem

[yoyoecho]

I am back to the problem with my stem. Had posted sometime back about that I might have the wrong angle on the stem (something just did not look right). Have checked the angle 1001 times and it is only 1 degree off. Having now made the bulkheads and upper deck the problem is that some how I made the stem to short. I went ahead and made the mast box and other fittings so I could make sure that my fit was correct and to my horror it is short. The upper deck has all the room to accommodate the length that adding to the stem would create. Okay now that I got that out. My question is what is the best way to correct this besides doing it right the first time. The three options that I have been thinking about are:

1. Cut off and rebuild the stem not my first choice.

2. Cut stem and laminate in an extension worried about strength but hull sides would help.

3. Add dead wood to top of stem sounds like to much of a quick fix.

Any other ideas or opinions would be great. Also does anyone know the height of the stem above the forward bulk head?

[Dave R1]

So how much too short is it? Could you add some material to the top of the stem and then trim up the bottom curve to slenderize it? If need be, you could also add a piece of the back of the stem. Other than reducing affecting the volume in the forepeak, extra material up there won't really hurt anything.

[Frank Hagan]

3. Add dead wood to top of stem sounds like to much of a quick fix.

This is your answer ... Its not often that the easiest is the best solution, but in this case I think it is. Dig out the center lamination in the stem top about a half inch down or so and make the new deadwood stem top with a protruding piece that fits in that groove. Call it a Special Stem Mortise and Tenon Joint, as used by professional boat builders everywhere, and declare victory! Use epoxy to glue it all together and it will be as strong as a one-piece stem.

You also will be throughbolting your bowsprit on the stem, so there's plenty of mechanical strength in that joint too. But the epoxy would hold it on just fine too.

I'm at work, so I can't measure my stem right now. I can get that for you tonight though if someone else doesn't before then.

[Barry Pyeatt]

I think I would start by (lofting out), making a full scale template of how it should actually have been built. That will give you a reference for how much you need to add and where.

Get all the angles correct and extend the template so that it will line up with the bottom.

If the additional material needs to be added to the top of the stem, then I would probably cut down the sides layers of the existing stem so that you end up with center layer as a tongue to attach new material.

The new material could then be laid up as a tongue and groove attachment so that there is sufficient material for a strong joint and stock to screw thru into the center layer.

Then when the additional material has been added, use the template to determine the final size/shape, etc. and trim the entire assembly to its correct profile.

It isn't the end of the world, but it looks as if it really needs to be corrected before you go further.

One other thing I think I would consider doing. As long as you are adding material, I would be tempted to extend the length of the stem as per the following photo. This will give you more support and contact area with the deck and allow you to attach the bits more securely. Also adds a bit of weight forward which will help keep the bow down.

[Craig]

I don't see this as the end of the world or the boat. Your photo doesn't show but I expect that the batten if extended would nearly to the front most point of the stem? In any event I would cut 1x lumber in to lengths and widths to build up the stem to where it needs to be. I would stack these one on top of the other as opposed to side by side as the keel is currently made. Epoxy these strips on and if you wish reinforce them with a couple lag bolts going into the existing stem at least 2". Bury the heads in the top piece of wood and embed with epoxy. Your can taper these staves to meet the required top line or build them up with staves, snap a line to marl the top and trim it off with a skill saw. This will give you the strength you need if the curve needs to be re-cut.

[Dave R1]

Barry has a good suggestion about building out the stem on the aft side. Funny that I was writing a post about that while he was writing it. I did that to mine about 5 years ago when I was building my keel.

As far as adding to the stem, I don't believe you would need to do the tongue and groove thing. If both faying surfaces mate well, a glue joint will be stronger than the wood. If you do shoose to do it, I think cutting down the outer layers makes more sense than cutting the inner layer. The outer layers are mostly end grain on the top and end grain joints aren't that great.

When you are ready to glue in the piece, coat the end grain first and let the glue cure a bit. Then recoat with glue and add the new piece of wood.

[Frank Hagan]

I think Craig's suggestion would work fine too. It would be more trouble than fabricating a mortise and tenon joint if you are working with more than 6" or so (its hard for me to see, but it looks like you have about 8" from the top of the stem to the batten that is providing the visual where your deck will be). If its more than 6" or so, I think one of the mortise and tenon options would be better. The epoxy is stronger than the wood, and you will be throughbolting the bowsprit on through the stem, so you won't have a problem either way.

Are you sure of the angle of the bulkhead? I don't have the plans with me, but if I remember correctly, the front bulkhead is angled aft about 5 degrees. This is shown as an angle on the mast box, if I remember correctly, but since the bulkhead forms the back side of that mast box, it applies to the bulkhead too.

If the angle is off on the bulkhead you may have trouble getting the sides to fit. So check that angle first.

[yoyoecho]

Thankyou everyone. With the fact that I'm more than 10" short (how in the world did I do that (slap hand to forehead many times)) I cut the head off the beast. Good thing was that I was the only one home at time so that the kids did not get to hear dad talk like a real sailor. Cutting out the lamination is not an option or let me say an easy one for the fact that I screwed it together and would have to try to cut them because the hole have been filled and the epoxy is stronger that the screws so the heads brake off. I cut hardwood strips and will screw and then epoxy them to the inside lamination. Then can build up the new section. See Pics below. Now I have to go get more wood but the pictures show the mockup.

Frank the bulkhead is set at the 93 angle with the mast box but not secured until I can check it with the upper deck. I have also written on the deck in that whole area "check angle for mast" so I can not get ahead of myself. It looks off in the pictures for the fact that my carport/boat shop is not level so the stern on the boat is raised about a foot and a half where the front is only about 2" of the ground.

[Frank Hagan]

Looks like you are recovering well!

I'm trying to remember, but I think I first did my "dry fit" with the stem pieces assembled wrong, and it made them too short. I'll have to try and remember specifically, but I think if you make the thing upside down it makes the stem longer but not high enough. We'll get you some measurements on our finished boats here so you can compare them.

[yoyoecho]

Thanks Frank and everyone. I know that when I was putting the keel together that my wife and I went round and round about how the stem was meant to be cut and assembled. I must have put it together the way the she said to. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[yoyoecho]

Okay test fitting but if any one knows the measurement of the stem from the deadwood to the upper deck. Cut everything long this time have found that it is much easier to cut it off than add to it.

[Barry Pyeatt]

If I understood the drawings. :roll:

The measurement from the bottom stem section junction to the keel to the top of the stem is 37 1/2".

That is measured from the rearmost edge of the top of the stem and from top edge to below the deadwood and measured on the aft side of the outer layers of the assembly. It then gets a 3/8" deep cutout in the top edge for the deck to set into.

The 37 1/2" is before the cutout is made for the deck. The deadwood is 3 1/2" thick at the leading edge but isn't measured on the same angle as the stem. So the deadwood measurement should not be added to the 37 1/2" measurement as this measurement will include the deadwood.

The angle from the top of the keel to the rear edge of the stem is 130 degrees. The deadwood sets within this angle. The angle of the top edge of the completed stem from top to rear edge of the stem is 141 degrees.

The length of the top of the stem from front tip to the rear edge should be approximately 28" before cutting out the notch for the deck to set in.

That should be confusing enough to muddy the waters some. :roll:

[Craig]

I wouldn't worry too much about this. Frank may remenber tht I have 4 spare transoms that didn't fit! Remember to measure with the micrometer, mark with chalk, carefully cut witht your cahin saw, pond it to fit and paint the whole thing shut! All of these methonds will work. Just pick the one that you feel comfortable with. That is one of the nice things about these designs. They are very forgiving of mistakes and wood really lends it's self to making this kind of repair.

[Barry Pyeatt]

I wouldn't be too embarrased about this either, if you got it incorrect, you are not the first to do virtually the same thing. Orientation of the parts in the plans could be better labeled to clarify things. The orientation is noted, but easily overlooked when you are rushed to get things lofted out and cut.

I know a couple of boats that have short stems due to just that overlooked or misunderstood orientation of parts from the plans.

Like they say,

Read it first.

Then read it again so that you pick up the points that you rushed by.

Then see if you do understand what you just read and can relate that to the plans.

Then measure twice, mark once and then erase and correct it. :oops:

Then have someone else double check the measurments while reading them off to you. Interesting how we might misread the same thing incorrectly a couple of times. :?

Then cut.

Then fill the gaps with epoxy.

Then glass over it.

Then fill the weave on the epoxy and sand, sand, sand.

Then paint.

There isn't anything that can't be fixed if done wrong. Often it is simple, sometimes not. But small measure/cutting errors have a way of becoming a large difference when it comes to fitting parts together.

That is why you reach a point where you measure and cut to fit rather than using the dimensions in the plans.

Famous last words of my dad when I built my first boat.

"If you have time to do it over to correct the mistake, why didn't you have the time to double/triple check it before you made the mistake?" :wink:

My daughter's favorite saying of mine. "Patience my dear, Patience!"

I got really good at fixing mistakes! The hurrier I go, the behinder I get.

___________________

I may not be good, but I'm slow! :wink:

[Dave R1]

Does this help? I drew this from the plans. The dimension is measured by the software.

[yoyoecho]

Okay Have my new wood and my cut has be cleaned and squared. Test fitted everything with adding 16" (NO I only need to add 8.5" but wanted to be able to test fit and then cut down the bits when I had the correct numbers) Still have no idea how I could have been so far off. Even if I installed the stem parts upside down the high would have been wrong but so would the angle and my angle is fine. Maybe I cut the lower angle wrong and then install the parts wrong and I got the wrong height but the correct angle. Don't know and not going to worry about it anymore. Thanks again to everyone and I just want to say that it was wonderful that I posted the problem and within 20 min I have 6 - 8 replies. It let me get right to work on fixing the problem and not walking around and around the boat grumbling under my breath. I will post some pictures when it is complete.

[Tim Diebert]

:idea:

You might want to consider the purchase of a wood stretcher so these minor errors won't be so stressful in the future.

:wink:

And I just thought I would mention that I have spent my life building junk out of wood I can tell you some of the best work I have ever done is fixing mistakes. The very stuff you never point out to a client.

Early on I worked for a 75 year old cantankerous shipwright. One day, after fuming and beating myself up about an error I made (I still get really mad at myself) he told me a saying, his Dad taught him, that has stuck with me, I am sure many of you have heard this, "The measure of a craftsman is not by how few mistakes he makes, but buy how well he fixes the ones he will make."

I love doing a good fix.

[Craig]

What a great point Tim. In my work I learn absolutely nothing from things that go right. The mistakes and failures are what really teach you something (or force you to learn something to correct/prevent). Funny about this when you stop to think about it. :!:

[Tim Diebert]

As you say Craig. Doing a good and correct job on the planned project, regardless of what it is, is accepted and often unremarkable. But when one of those big curves is tossed at you, throwing the sequence out, the schedule out and having to be corrected under pressure...is really the challenge and the measure of skill and patience. The fun stuff.

But still....a wood stretcher would be nice.

[Craig]

OK, OK Tim, I'll get right on that wood streatcher with the full force of the US Government! (Or maybe just my little chunk of it) Then again, it was me who steped in the paint pan tonight as Tom and I were laying a coat of primer on his top.