Dry-dock ... & what to do with my keel

[Phil Gowans]

While inspecting Aloha and planning my regular spring maintenance, I discovered some delaminating of the fiberglass on my keel. I know this will open up the "don't fiberglass your keel" debate. I don't think that's all bad. Here's a real example of what can happen.

A little History: My keel was the standard 3-ply buildup as per the design. It was glued with epoxy and nailed in a few spots while it cured. The nails were then removed. I didn't want any metal below the waterline since I would be using the boat in the Great Salt Lake. I used tulip poplar for the keel. Despite some suggestions to the contrary I decided to encapsulate everything on the boat. I used a coat of fiberglass on the keel and filleted with thickened epoxy. On the bottom of the keel I used a strip of 24oz biaxial tape. The black color is graphite in the exterior coat of epoxy.

This has held up quite well since launching in 2000, except for a section on the stem that started to delam. I suspect that I this was because I didn't precoat the keel with epoxy. This was nearly my first fiberglassing attempt. The biaxial shoe has worked quite well as shown in this picture of the keel at its lowest point. It has had some of the exterior epoxy worn off but not bad gashes or digs.

Discovery: To my surprise, I found a crack in the fiberglass above the biaxial shoe where it was being pulled apart. In this same area there was loose fiberglass and even a slight bulge in one spot. There was also a separation between the floor bottom and the keel. The fillet had stayed with the keel and there was a 1/4" crack right above the keel and fillet. This indicated to me that one layer of the keel was moving since the center layer had no crack. You might be able to make some of this out here where I removed some of the fiberglass. The white dots on the black bottom are just salt.

Preparation: For your viewing entertainment I included some pictures of how I got the boat off the trailer and set it up for fiberglass removal. I used 2 block and tackles to lift the boat. With the assistance of my wife and daughter we were able to lift the boat and pull out the trailer. I used a $0.50 mattress from the local thrift store for padding and Aloha up on her side.

Damage: In removing the fiberglass I found that it came off the sides under the cockpit fairly eaisly - scraping with a pry bar. The bottom shoe was a lot more problematic. The fiberglass fore of the cockpit does not come off well at all. It would be very difficult to remove it without using power equipment. The wood even though discolored from water was not wet nor had any obvious rot occurred. Utah has one of the least humid climates and I think that this keeps the boat very well dried out.

Questions: Considering my dry climate, fairly soft wood, Extremely salty water, The good discussion of keels recently on the BYYB site.

• 
  Do I try to finish the keel with fiberglass again or just paint?
  If not, Do I remove all the fiberglass from the keel or just the part that I have off?
  Do I worry about the keel laminations moving?
  Do I fill the crack above the keel with epoxy or 5200?
  Do I leave the fillet off?
  Basically what would you do?
  

[Frank Hagan]

As you know, I'm a "no glass on the keel" advocate. I've always thought that two factors ... the expansion and contraction of the wood and cinching it down onto the trailer after wood shrinkage ... could lead to cracks and delamination. The keel is made from boards, as opposed to much-more-stable plywood, so it will behave more like those old wooden boats that were ruined with an epoxy overcoat in the 80's.

But on Aloha, I think you have to reseal the area where the glass has come off, or remove the glass from the entire keel. Otherwise, I think you'll probably get water migration under the edges whereever you have a break in the glass. And you might be right ... making sure the keel is well coated with epoxy first, and then the glass well wet out, might make the difference.

The wood movement will continue, of course, but any shrinkage should be over with.

[Phil Gowans]

My original thought was to patch the thing. When I discovered that it was fairly extensive I decided that all the fiberglass had to go. Now that I see it is not going to come off easily, I have second thoughts.

Ok, What's the best way to get all the fiberglass off without tearing up the wood too badly? Scraping doesn't seem like a possibility. Grinding would be too dangerous to the keel. Sanding would be tedious or would probably require such a course grit that the keel would suffer. I know of no chemicals that would work. Or would a good stripper work? What are my possibilities?

[Frank Hagan]

Try a heat gun; epoxy starts to soften around 140

[Phil Gowans]

I think old age makes me stupid(er). Last year I used some Jasco paint & epoxy stripper. I took off the epoxy from my deadeyes and cleats and did a linseed oil treatment. I doubt it would work well with fiberglass though. I'm going to try it and the heat gun together tonight.

[Craig]

I have some pictures like that too Phil. I stripped off all of the loose epoxy and all of the fillets on both sides of the keel. I filled the crack where the upper most keel board meets the bottom with thickened epoxy. I also filled and faired the bottom with the same where the glass was loose there. I made a ~3/4 raidus fillet with thickened epoxy the full length of the hull. You don't mention any of the lower boards delaming so I don't know if you want to crossbolt now or what. I suspect if the glue line failed at the top the bottom can't be far behind. What was happening with mine was that the keel was warping to one side after the outer boards loosened. The fix in my case twas to drill into any voids found and pour in the epoxy. After that was complete I countersunk for crossbolts and epoxied them as well. In some areas I was able to make larger holes thorough the entire structure. I clamped the boards togather well and filled with an epoxy casting through the counter sunk holes. If this comes apart to hell with it, it's time for a new boat. I struggled with the glass not glass question for a week or so and then put one thin layer of glass on the wood and then 3 or 4 coats of epoxy over that. So far so good. That said however I will never use a piece of yellow pine on a boat again. That wood was three years dry and still warped like hell! I use fir or better for any wood replacement done now. If you would like I can set up some photos for you tonight.

v/r

Craig

[Yellowtail]

Use a heat gun and be prepared to be sickened by how easy it is to get the glass off - that's been my experience, though with much older fibreglass than yours. However, when a coating starts to lift like that, usually you'll find that only enough of it will stick to make the whole job a pain in the moaning chair squasher.

If she were mine, I'd get as much of the fibreglass off as possible without going stupid, then sit back and have a look ... and a beer ... and a sook. The amount of glass left will tell you whether to re-glass it or take the lot off.

If you do choose to reglass, think of it as very tough paint. You've had five years sailing on it so far ... that's better than a coat or two of enamel would have done down there. And if there is no rot, you're still ahead of the game.

Cheers

Richard

[Phil Gowans]

Craig, thanks for the warning. I'm thinking I might dowel the keel now. I don't want any metal in the wood down there. Maybe a metal shoe, but no bolts or screws. I think the high salt water content I'm in ocassionally would play havoc with any metal. I know what you mean about the frustrations of a softwood keel choice. When I made that choice I really didn't know what I was getting in for.

Richard, for now at least I think your recommended approach is what I'm going to do, at least for tonight.

[Craig]

You are right Phil. I keep forgetting about your lake. Dowels are good. Sara ragged me about saving a few bucks on the SYP for the keel. Boy was she right! I have had nothing but grief with that pine. Cypress next time for me. Are you getting any curvature to the sides or just the delam at the bottom joint?

[Tim Diebert]

I would just like to point out that most folks are using basic lumber for their keels. Basic from the standpoint that, regardless of species, it is almost certainly flat sawn or through and through. When this is the case, not matter what, that lumber will move...and when it does there is no layer of glass that will hold it back....also the addition of moisture will just send it travelling.

When laminating solid lumber together in such large sizes and as wide as is required in this case, the three laminates should be quartersawn. Everything should be jointed flat and thickness planed so you have perfect mating surfaces.

If you are gluing it together and hope for that glue to be the main bond, you will need good heavy and flat plattens and plenty of pressure to clamp the sucker all together. For such large glue ups I have used spring battens between the layup and a fixed upper surface...(shop cieling...an underside of another heavy boat....a beam etc)

Personally, I would want such a thing backed by mechanical fasteners as well as glue. I also would not glass, but whatever, a personal choice more or less. If you choose to not glass the keel, I would not glass up to the keel on either side...but rather glass the bottom then attach keel. And knowing the order of how these rascals go together...that ain't really going to tbe possible.

Also, I recon this keel (glassed or no) would be fine on rollers and not crush (even if a softer material) if a metal shoe was installed. I used some 2" X 1/4" copper.

Just some observations and opinionated opinions.

More random info to add to the confusion. Perhaps of use to someone that might be starting to build...?

Sorry to hear of your troubles Phil.....but your boat looks wonderful. Some good looking work there for sure.

Oh, and I second what Yellowtail said, the heat gun is a great help in removing stuck glass. I have done it many times myself. A super tool to have around the shop.

Good luck with it.

[Phil Gowans]

Craig, Yes the keel has a bit of warp to it.

I have got the keel free of glass to about the middle. The heat gun does help, but it is still a slow process. My son says he can get me some powerful stripper that will take everything off and not raise the grain of the wood.

My current plan is to strip off all the epoxy / fiberglass, Fill the cracks with 5200, and paint with a good oil based paint. I want to finish with a good strip of probably white oak on the bottom of the keel

I know, it sounds like I'm going from one extreme to the other, but in my super dry climate, all the salt (which might act as a preservative) and the fact the wood will continue to move, I think this might just work well enough.

[Frank Hagan]

My current plan is to strip off all the epoxy / fiberglass' date=' Fill the cracks with 5200, and paint with a good oil based paint. I want to finish with a good strip of probably white oak on the bottom of the keel[/quote']

I think that's a good plan. You can dowel the white oak or get fancy with a sliding dovetail joint ... heh, imagine a 16' long sliding dovetail! Get a running start ...

[Guest]

Well...................................................Well....................................without sounding a bit of a smart##@^&@(()^###, I would like to say this about that. POPULAR, known to all of us modern day insane folks building boats now, is abosulutely the worse, even worse than pressed wood plywood. Now I will duck when some will say that old growth is wonderful stuff, and so go ahead, I am good at taking the heat. 8)

One of the reasons I say this is that while you have it like that, I bet its pretty darn easy if you want to redo it with new stuff now.

Heatgun, paint striper, and everything between cannot beat either the old reliable four inche angle grinder, with 24 grit on it, and or the 6,000rpm -8 inche type with 24 or grit hard pad, will consume less time, and even less mess, when you keep a shop vacumn by your side, either with a helper. That keel and glass will only require about 15 minutes to remove all of it. I would not stop on that keel where you may think its stuck. Don't take the chance, Its not worth it for the size of this section of your boat.

Now let me make a comment about keel materials. In the used weekender that I have just aquired, it has the prettiest fir that one person come ever wish for, where is wasn't black with rot and delamination. So the moral to the story, in most cases, would lend me to believe that anything will rot covered with glass and then alllow to be void and fills with water. Large chunks of wood, in my opinionated opinion should not be used for these keels.

A good lamination of strips, with either althread or bronze bolts, predrilling them as you go and fitted dry, and then removed and then glued up, still makes the best installations for these size of keels. It keeps the side motion or atleast minimizing the side motion from happening and in most cases causing the delamination in the first place. These type keels can also be removed at a later date, when bolting them on, good backing blocks on the inside, and bedding them with most flex caulking, except 5200 for service. BUt I am in no way attempting to change any construction methods, but having watch a lot of keel problems such as this, there are better ways to do this and yes glass it and make it a great setup and a setup that can be serviced, if ever need be without flipping the boat. Most folks do not have that luzuary again.

I will give you my thoughts on why even GOOD glass delaminates on areas such as these keels. One good reason is starved resin in the layup and movement by larger solid pieces.

[Guest]

By the way, when I lay up laminated strips, I allow my bronze bolts or allthread to stop in the next to last layer, and then counterbore the last piece, and gluing it in place. This seals all of the metal and glass the thing back on, and using either a glue fillet at the seam or either a garboard wooden strip,like a 45 degree, glued in place, also makes it more rigid the area that will work the most. You can glass over that piece with a good biaxal glass, if you reglass the keel. I bet if you smear a slightly thickened coat of resin with cabosil, and wait till tacky, and then glass it, then you will not have any problems with it..

[Craig]

Yes Phil that got wet in there and the outer board started to cup dragging the rest with it. Same as mine.

Mike are you recommending building up the keel with veverticlestacked) strips and then through bolting like a real timber keel? As I read this I envisioned making just the outer lamination with strips and then thought that will not do much as the other two timbers will just keep moving. I hadn't thought of that but it is a great idea! Cut off the keel at the stem flush with the hull line and then make a new one from strips coconforminghe shape of the old keel. Then you say to put a shoe over the bottom of the whole thing? I sort of fifigured thathe next time my keel went walking, and it will I ththink it will even ith the cross bolts ( can't bolt close enough to the hull to stop the cupping), that that would be the end of her. With this idea I could save the boat and solve the problem all with the same process. You are a handy guy to have around Mike. Thanks for the ideas.

[Guest]

Heck, if you have an existing keel, [another job for the sawzall tool] just cut off the bulk of it, leaving enough to attach strips to, with it upside down or right side up, and set your some simple screws for gluing, marking the places on the side of the strips so you don't hit them with your next ones, still again predrilling your master holes for your pins, even leaving the pieces rough width ways, then sanding all of it after curing of the glue, keeping a close watch with a straight edge and eye or string if the boat is upside down, you get the point? Ain't rocket science for most engineers, and just plain simple for even us simple guys.

If you boat has a rocker bottom, just follow the curve. gluing pieces, till you get enough buildup and then sand shape it to your happiness of the parrallel, if desired, and then cap it with a continuous piece the running length of the keel or skeg. Any screw left in the keel, can be sanded down with the right disc, or in most cases can be removed in most cases, after you have shaved off the glue for the top of it. Just get the heat hot enough and the glue will come out of it with an ice pick or some better screw bits will displace it when you make the attempt to unscrew them.

All it takes, at this point is to run a good paddle bit to clean out your predrilled holes to accomadate your drift pins.