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Further Ballast Discussion regarding degrees from Vertical


Barry Pyeatt

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Just for the sake of further discussion, I put this little comparison together to show the degrees from vertical. This doesn't account for loading as the boat will sit lower in the water as it heels over. So it is quite possible with a normally loaded hull to have the top rail in the water at between 20 and 25 degrees. With Ray's additional "bulb ballast" it seems to me that it will sit lower when loaded and that can cause the rail to get to the waterline even sooner. Although there is definitely a righting effect in play here that would require more air to get to heel that far.

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Nice Images Barry,

I think I will be hiked out by 20 degrees, reducing the heal.

My concentration level will also increase as the heal increases. So at 20 degrees, with me hiked out, you better believe I will be concentrating on the boat and environment. Crew had better be quit, except to alert me, and had better do as I instruct. At 30....

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I have been experimenting with 160 lbs of lead in ingots and moving them around. I find that it makes loading and unloading the boat from the trailer much harder and doesn't do all that much to prevent healing. It does add to the stability when at anchor and it keeps the bow down and reduces pounding somewhat. It's a trade off at best and at this point I am not too sure it is something I need.

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Yada...yada, yes I realize that and it is an important consideration. :P :wink: :lol:

The reason I did this is that a lot of the builders don't realize just what angle will bring these factors to play. So maybe it will help some of them understand some of the reasoning behind the ballast and its location.

But then maybe most of them are quicker than I was at picking these things up. :wink:

It also occured to me that we really don't know the maximum loading recomendations for a Weekender either. I know that on the Maui boat there were 3 of us that weighed in at around 250-300 each and one that must have weighed at least 100 # soaking wet.

So figure adding another 250# of ballast plus cooler, motor or electric and battery(s) and various other gear and you have a lot more onboard than the total weight of the boat alone. Now maybe that is one reason I didn't feel like we were going to blow over. :roll:

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Barry, that is an interesting chart, according to which the couple on the front of the weekender video are barrelling along at 23 to 30 degrees. I was was always to "trained" to sail racing dinghys flat to get maximum sail power, I sail my Weekender at 15 degrees, but will it point better and go faster into the wind if I heel it further? I have been able to get pretty close to the wind heeled over in strong winds with the sail flapping (and spilling wind) but this was right on the limit of single handed sailing in about 20knots (unreefed)

Unfortunately its Winter here (Southern hemisphere) so having boasted about my summer sailing exploits, they are alas, just a memory and we're expecting our first snow today.

Do you think the Video is speeded up? Videos often are slightly.

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I watched the video again...several times. I really don't think so. My one and only experience was in some pretty good seas with wind blowing the tops off of them and we were moving. It had to be close to hull speed. Yes, we were heeled over quite aways, but I wasn't uncomfortable at all or concerned. And to get the Weekender to perform in light air, apparently you need to induce a heel to get it working. Quite unlike the smaller craft we used as kids.

But then I had our 51' ketch's first life line in the water a lot. :lol:

And much to my brides consternation occasionally the second too. :roll:

Oh that was in my younger days and I was into some offshore racing too on occasion. :wink:

Now...I'm just looking forward to being able to spend some time on the water either alone or with my first mate. She enjoys sailing, but not pushing it to extremes.

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What is probably the number one question a person asks or at least thinks about when considering one of these boats. How stabil is it? After all it's an unballisted boat.

I'm sure the Stevensons had heard this question often by the time they made the video. So why not tape a Weekender shown being pushed to it's limits. Seeing the boat moving that fast and heeling that much is a good way to drive home the stability of the Weekender. "Whoa, you can heel that much and not capsize?" Point proven and sale made.

Bob

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I am going sailing in the morning, solo, until the afternoon, when family will join me. Hopefully the wind will be up and I'll get to hang ten.

I have all ways chickened out and let the main out at the last moment. So I still don't know if the Vacationer will spill her wind, righting herself before going over. :wink:

Maybe I'll go fit another piece of blueboard in some where :roll:

Larger Genoa, repaired, too! :lol:

I'll have a few new pics for you soon.

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Just for the sake of further discussion I was reading the most recent issue of Woodenboat July/August issue #173 and there was a small but interesting article by Paul Kaniut on building a V-bottom on a flat bottom Boat. I thought this was especially interesting in regard to Weekender designs. It would provide more chine and I was wondering what you all would think performance would be like. Additional there would be cavities to place some lead low at the keel line.

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Joe, I saw that artical and thought the boat was nice. I had thought of something like that for the Vacationer or Weekender could be done, but I think you would have to make the keel deeper. The standard keel would work for the depth of the V frames but you would need extra keel below the V. The other problem with it is you would have to add balast. I think you would loose some to the stability of the boat because the bottom would no longer be flat. I would probably work with the experimental ballast bulbs though. On the design in the mag, the chines are used to help with the plaining of the boat as well. That's why the V doesn't go clear out to the chines but is short a couple of inches.

I like the boat in the article so much that I've been toying with the idea of calling the designer to inquire about the cost for plans.

Bob

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  • 1 month later...

Hey Barry, I was checking out your degree of heel diagram again and there is one basic flaw in it. As you've rotated each profile you've kept the waterline centered at the keel. This would not be the case in real world sailing. The boat you show in the last drawing is sinking. The only way you would get that much boat under the waterline would be to fill it with water. It's riding too low in the water Barry. It looks like it's lost part of its bouancy(sp).

I think the weekender would have to go over a lot further in order to get the rail in the water.

More like this:

Degrees%20of%20list.jpg?dc=4675432161348854645

Bob

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I was out on a friends Weekender recently after doing this drawing. We were sailing in 10-12 knot breeze and had some nice steady wind most of the time. First time out after re working the rigging on his boat to correct mast angle and tune up a few things. We were on Lake Washington with a nice 2-3 mile run in any direction from the launch. We could sail on long runs in any direction we desired so we played with the wind.

I had the great opportunity to spend the entire outing at the helm and just feel the boat out for handling. We played with sail shape and peak halyard tension to shape the main and tuned the jib with tension and trim.

After moving around on all points of sail, he asked me if I felt comfortable with it and was I ready to see what it could do.

I was and we pointed it up into the wind. Started tuning it for best speed and at about 20-25 degrees off the wind we had the best performance.

We were heeling 15-18 degrees with it close hauled and tuned as tight as we could get it. Upper rail in the water for some extended periods. Bow down. About as much fun as one can expect in a boat this size. Jim, (owner/builder) was sitting on centerline and he weighs in at about 170 maybe, I weigh in at a trim, svelte 245. Very stable sailing, he had never had it moving quite that fast or pointing that high. Rudder was easy to handle, tacking great, but for my inexperience in a Weekender. Downwind was fun, nicely balanced easy to keep that way. Did a little wing n' wing with it for extended periods with steady lighter winds.

Reaching in a little higher wind conditions convinced me to put a horse on mine and probably a vang of some sort. Decided it could use more headsail in the lighter air.

Later in the evening, (after dark) we were in some lighter air and just moving wonderfully at all points of sail while others in some of the plastic were just sitting going nowhere.

Didn't feel the need for ballast, although it is a bit tippy when you walk the deck. In heavier air, I'm think it could help, but my prior experience in Hawaii was in much heavier sea and air and I never felt uncomfortable in the least. It is after all still a small boat, with a small wetted area. I don't see where a swing keel would make any difference, it tacks great and when you tune it right, it moves like it is on a rail.

If I were making one modification beyond the raised cabin and boom, I would probably try building with a wider transom (maybe 4-6" more on either side. I would like a little wider cockpit with more leg room and the extra stability that I think it might provide.

I found the wheel a joy to use, the rudder balanced nicely and very responsive.

I also was quick to find that when the other boats are sitting and going nowhere, just induce a little lean to it, get the chine down into the water and this hull likes to get going. We were sailing circles around and among the other "plastic" when the water was virtually flat and almost no wind to feel against my cheek. Sails barely moving in the light breeze and we were sailing. Bring it back to upright and it slowly stops. Induce a little heel to it again and it picks right back up and moves out.

I was also impressed on how quick it accelerates after a tack.

All in all a really nice, warm, clear, moonlight evening. We got on the water about 7 PM and pulled it out about 11 PM because they close up the launch at 11:30. I had a great time and I really appreciate the opportunity to play with his Weekender. Great incentive to get the boat finished an in the water. :lol:

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You could be right, I just don't know if there was enough air movement to generate lift on a bagged out sail. But this was certainly an interesting phenomenen to me. Didn't see telltale movement at all and we were sailing.

I did find that we could effectively point to about 12-15 degrees off the wind, but it wasn't as efficient as being 15-20 off.

I can also see a potential advantage to loose footing the main. So I think I'll try a main designed for that purpose as well as the stock main and see what works the best for me.

I do know I will definitely put two marine batteries up in the forepeak. Keeping the bow down is a real bonus in perfomance in any air.

We don't have a shallow water problem unless we sail in some of the mudflat areas so I don't think the rudder needs to be changed at all except to use a bungee for hold down.

I do know that this was a totally enjoyable experience for me and I think for Jim as well.

Now we will work on boom tents.

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We were starting to stall out at about 12-15 and loose headway and have the sails luff. Falling off of that to 15-20 and we could trim it for some fairly good performance, but the best performance was between 20-25 degress off of the wind. Best sail shape, consistently even telltale movement indicating consistent air across the entire sail. It would have been nice to have had a GPS along to measure speed, but we'll get to that as well.

No, I didn't mean to imply that inducing some heeling would make the boat move on its own. But it is an interesting set of conditions that create the ability to be sailing when there isn't a noticable amount of air movement. It is fun and when you can see that you have rudder control, and a small amount of wake, you know that something is working. Not moving fast by any means, but having the ability to move around when others can't. OH YEA! :D :shock:

It was also interesting to note that there were a number of other lightweight boats in our area, but none of them were gaff rigged. I don't know if the Gaff rig has any advantage in that light air or not.

If we had been in Salt or somewhere with a current that could explain the movement, but not the ability to move around other boats that are just sitting with limp sails.

Interesting and certainly worth a few looks of either awe or wonder about why we were sailing and they were not.

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Sure Ray, it was apparent wind not actual wind direction. And the angle is a guesstimate not an actual measurment. What I was amazed at though was how high we could get it to point. Much higher than on a lot of other boats I've had. We were tacking within roughly a 40 to 45 degree arc most of the time.

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