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Sailing Sharpie vs Sailing Dory comparisons.


Greg Luckett

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I was reading a fascinating story in WoodenBoat, July/August 2016, "The Odyssey of RAGMEG" starting on pag 56, about a man who singlehanded from Nova Scotia to Southern California, via the Panama Canal.

 

It started me wondering what the differences were between the Sharpie designs and the Dory designs. Doing Google searching just keep bringing up small boats, skiffs or dinghy sizes, or Cape Dory designs. Nothing I was hoping to find so far.

 

Does anyone here have some good sources that would simplify this question of mine?

Thanks. :)

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Both types have a lot of history associated with them and an equal amount of unsubstantiated BS about seaworthiness, stability, etc. The first thing is to actually understand the types and their various derivatives, particularly among the dories. For example, there's basically two types of sharpie and none of them have ever been particularly small. The nature of the sharpie, requires some length, so anyone suggesting their 15' sharpie is fast (or whatever) really don't know anything about sharpies. With their typical 6:1 or better beam/length ratio a 15' sharpie would have a 30" beam, making it a canoe if anything, certainly not a sailor. The same is true of dories, which often come touted with historic seaworthiness reputations. They did very well in their role as a surf boat and in bringing home their crews, but statistics are deceiving. The dory does do well in a hefty chop, but only with a half ton or more of dieing cod in it's belly. The ones that brought home their crews were more a testament of the skipper and crew's abilities, than the boat's innate attributes.

 

Dories received a lot of local development, resulting in many types. The sharpie did too, but not on the same scale. There's probably a dozen or so dory types, while just a few sharpies. Ruel Parker is a place to look for some information, but there's also other books and online literature available too. As to the exploits of one or two owners, I don't think these are especially notable, other than the accomplishment itself. Lots of skippers have made mad voyages, which isn't to say anything more than they're lucky, skilled and good sailors. The Spray is an example of this, often thought of as a real blue water vessel, when in fact is a modified oyster dredger, that happened to have an extremely skilled skipper, solo her around the world. The spray does make a great harbor queen, but most versions of this boat are lousy sea boats, by any reasonable accounting, other than stowage volume.

 

As to your search, have a look at John Gardner's writings, for a good over view, as well as Chapelle. All the major writers have had opinions about them, but take them for what they're worth, as most had self admitted biases. For what it's worth, most sharpies today are really skiffs and most dories are modified considerably too. This is because a 6:1 B/L sharpie isn't a practical small boat, so they keep the styling traits and fatten them up, for better, shorter "sharpies". This is true with the dory also, with wider bottom panels to improve initial stability (without a ton of fish in its belly), but retaining the well flared side panels, for the look. A lightly loaded real dory is a corky thing, skittish and not pleasant to maneuver, but loaded up with 6 scared guys and a ton of fish, they settle down, sail well and can take on some rough seas too.

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   I think what Paul was trying to say (and I trust he will correct me because I am probably wrong) is that a sharpie is a descendant of sailboats that were used for fishing in inshore waters a couple of hundred years ago and a dory is a descendant of a boat that was used for offshore fishing just as long ago and as the two designs have evolved as pleasure craft they have drifted together so far that the new designs resemble each other more than they resemble their respective heritages.

   Or in short - the names dory and sharpie are just two words that today's designers use to evoke a feeling of connection to the past.

   Sorry, Greg - I am not an expert, but from what I understand, a sharpie has a high length-to-beam ratio and (usually) a flat bottom.  They were fast boats with big rigs that were used for fishing inshore waters (and the boats were big, too).   I think a dory was more of a small boat that had a lot of rocker and flaring topsides for riding the waves and for stackability.  I have read that they were carried stacked one inside another to the fishing grounds by a larger and faster mother ship so they didn't need to be as fast as sharpies because they weren't racing to market, they were just doing the fishing.

   I'm looking forward to being corrected so I can learn something :)

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"Ruel Parker is a place to look for some information." He wrote a book "The Sharpie Book". Includes basic plans for several sharpies.

This is a really good book, which I have had for years now. I did not think it had a comparison to the Dory but it has been a while since I read it. Time to dust it off and take another look. Thanks for the reminder, Chick. :)

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The two types are very different and comparisons are difficult, to say the least. The dory in particularly has about a dozen distinctly different forms, many local suited, others simply convenience, such as making them stackable on a dock or deck. The sharpie on the other hand has only a few variants, with each suited to their use, such as the elliptical transom, so nets can be handled over the stern, without hanging on a transom corner. Dories also handled nets, but dragged them over the side. Sharpies are a more inshore type, while the dory often was used in more open water. Both evolutions are fairly well covered by Chapelle and others, but modern "dories" and "sharpies", generally are in name only, likely for plan sale reasons, more than anything else. Boats called a sharpie are usually a skiff and boats called dories, often have the aesthetic attributes of the dramatic topside flare and tombstone transom, but also have wider bottom panels for better initial stability and greatly decreased hull volume, so a 16' boat doesn't need a crew of six and a 1,000 pounds of fish to bring it down to its lines.

 

This is a pretty common thing when taking an antique type and bringing it into the modern age. I recently did a conversion of an antique cat boat. It was fairly heavily framed and a typical, complex build, now to be done in glued lapstrake. In the modern version, hull volume was removed, because it was going to be at least 1/3 lighter. The lines were altered a bit to accommodate the rig, better than was traditionally done in the golden age of sail, the forefoot was changed considerably to prevent the "diving" these boats were infamous for in the day, modern appendage shapes, etc., etc., etc. It looks like a late 19th century cat boat, except there's no frames inside her and unless you have studied the type, you'd not notice she's not quite as beamy, has a wholly different run, though her transom is still the shapely thing it should be. It'll easily out sail the original she was modeled after, but technically, it's hard to call her a cat boat, so much as a cat boat looking sort of boat.

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This is the boat design in the article I referenced. St. Pierre dory, which I think is a John Gardner design. I have a couple of his books but nothing about this particular design.

Link to a source of plans, which I have not explored yet: http://www.nexusmarine.com/st_pierre.html

 

After reading the story in WoodenBoat, it has peeked my curiosity to learn more about this design, and maybe even build one.

 

Thanks for all the information and insights, Paul, Chick, and Ken. I appreciate your help, as always.

 

By the way PAR, did you get my email a couple of days ago?

:)

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The two types are very different and comparisons are difficult, to say the least. The dory in particularly has about a dozen distinctly different forms, many local suited, others simply convenience, such as making them stackable on a dock or deck. The sharpie on the other hand has only a few variants, with each suited to their use, such as the elliptical transom, so nets can be handled over the stern, without hanging on a transom corner. Dories also handled nets, but dragged them over the side. Sharpies are a more inshore type, while the dory often was used in more open water. Both evolutions are fairly well covered by Chapelle and others, but modern "dories" and "sharpies", generally are in name only, likely for plan sale reasons, more than anything else. Boats called a sharpie are usually a skiff and boats called dories, often have the aesthetic attributes of the dramatic topside flare and tombstone transom, but also have wider bottom panels for better initial stability and greatly decreased hull volume, so a 16' boat doesn't need a crew of six and a 1,000 pounds of fish to bring it down to its lines.

 

This is a pretty common thing when taking an antique type and bringing it into the modern age. I recently did a conversion of an antique cat boat. It was fairly heavily framed and a typical, complex build, now to be done in glued lapstrake. In the modern version, hull volume was removed, because it was going to be at least 1/3 lighter. The lines were altered a bit to accommodate the rig, better than was traditionally done in the golden age of sail, the forefoot was changed considerably to prevent the "diving" these boats were infamous for in the day, modern appendage shapes, etc., etc., etc. It looks like a late 19th century cat boat, except there's no frames inside her and unless you have studied the type, you'd not notice she's not quite as beamy, has a wholly different run, though her transom is still the shapely thing it should be. It'll easily out sail the original she was modeled after, but technically, it's hard to call her a cat boat, so much as a cat boat looking sort of boat.

This is really nice, PAR. Just a very vivid description of what you did, and why. There is a bunch of information about boats right in this one post. I have learned a whole heap from you, and enjoyed a bunch of your humor.

I also think you have a nice eye for boats. I like what I've seen from your board, that is.

Thanks.

Peace,

Robert

Doesn't a dory being a dory somewhat depend on the bottom, and the way it's made? I mean, a dory shape, but cross planked on bottom with chine logs isn't REALLY a dory anymore than a fore and aft planked boat is a sharpie, right?

Aren't some of these little distinctions in terminology as much based on methodology as geography or whateverography? I always understood the bottom to be a vital part in a dory being a dory, all else being built from it, whatever the shape of the sides or whether upright or upside down on the horse.

It seems I know exactly enough to not know much, as usual, eh? :)

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Nope, there are longitudinal planked (bottoms) dories too, beside the file planked versions. File planking was done to make the build faster with a whole lot less waste. In fact, when gas engines came to be, they started putting them in everything, including dories. It was soon learned that the file planked versions didn't hold up to the vibrations well, so they went back the the fore and aft planked bottom, to address the leaking issues, on the power dory variant.

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A good read is a book called "The Thousand Dollar Yacht" by Anthony Bailey, about how he was looking for an inexpensive small yacht and not finding what he wanted. He wound up getting interested in a dory yacht. Through National Fisherman, he was able to buy a 28' bare hull from a builder, and finishing it himself, then goes on to tell his experiences. This book is a classic among us messabout folks!

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I have been looking at this Mystic Sharpie design for years now and it came around again while I was Googling about dories and sharpies.

What do you all think of this design?

 

 http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/32-mystic-sharpie-ketch

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A good read is a book called "The Thousand Dollar Yacht" by Anthony Bailey, about how he was looking for an inexpensive small yacht and not finding what he wanted. He wound up getting interested in a dory yacht. Through National Fisherman, he was able to buy a 28' bare hull from a builder, and finishing it himself, then goes on to tell his experiences. This book is a classic among us messabout folks!

Yeah, I ran across this somewhere else and added it to my shopping cart on Amazon. It looks interesting to me too. Thanks.

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That Brewer ketch has many brothers and sisters,just like her. I think of them in the "Egret" style and you don't get much for a 32' boat, not even reasonable sitting headroom, though they are pretty.

Long and slim as you pointed out to me earlier about Sharpies. I need to actually go look at some and maybe, if opportunity is there, go out on some.  I doubt Brewer's is a good fit to the Lake Michigan waters on the Michigan side, but maybe? The PS26 looks better to me for that.

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